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Behold my
Radiance!
Picture of Grayguns
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by StVitus:
Bruce,

I understand the older folded slide not being able to withstand the torque of the 10mm, but what do you really think of the suitability of an aluminum frame given adequate recoil spring weight and perhaps a tungsten guide rod?

BTW, put me on the list for one in whatever configuration you decide on! Big Grin


An alloy 10 might run for a while, but I have to consider the heroic slide velocity this round will generate no matter what we'll do to attenuate it through increased slide mass, leverage, lockup values and springing. We've seen too many prematurely worn P229's in 357 SIG or .40 to consider an alloy 10 a sound idea, knowing what we know so far.

I can't conscience spending your cash for something I'm not completely confident in, so please permit us to build what we know will be serviceable first? I'm certain you'll be very pleased with what we'll do, and it'll be guaranteed for life as always. Thank you for considering us!

-Bruce




Designer and custom pistolsmith at Grayguns Inc. Privileged to be R&D consultant to the world's greatest maker of fine firearms. Now: Get some Lucas Extreme Duty Grease from Top Gun Supply and SIG Pro Shop, dammit! And remember: MOAC is coming again in 2017!

Visit us at http://opspectraining.com/product-cat/videos/ to order yours, and Thank You for making GGI the leader in custom SIG and HK pistols.

Bruce Gray, President
Grayguns Inc.
Grayguns.com / 541-468-3840
 
Posts: 9404 | Location: GGI's Secret Volcano Base near Spray, and Bruce's R&D custom shop in Reedsport, Oregon | Registered: October 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Behold my
Radiance!
Picture of Grayguns
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by StVitus:
.......Or, would it be considered sacrilege to modify a P220 Langdon? Cool


Sacrilege? No. Redemption? Perhaps. Wink

-Bruce




Designer and custom pistolsmith at Grayguns Inc. Privileged to be R&D consultant to the world's greatest maker of fine firearms. Now: Get some Lucas Extreme Duty Grease from Top Gun Supply and SIG Pro Shop, dammit! And remember: MOAC is coming again in 2017!

Visit us at http://opspectraining.com/product-cat/videos/ to order yours, and Thank You for making GGI the leader in custom SIG and HK pistols.

Bruce Gray, President
Grayguns Inc.
Grayguns.com / 541-468-3840
 
Posts: 9404 | Location: GGI's Secret Volcano Base near Spray, and Bruce's R&D custom shop in Reedsport, Oregon | Registered: October 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Cogito ergo sum
Picture of trover
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I'm curious about a few things:

1) I don't have a P220 ST or an Elite. I understand I can either find an ST or buy an Elite, and that you may be selling complete guns, which to me seems perhaps the right way to go. But this assumes you have some sort of distribution relationship with SigArms, which assumes some sort of level of approval of what you're doing (modification wise), and I'm wondering if these assumptions are correct and if so what you think pricing might be for the complete gun? Whew! Lotta stuff there....

2) Somewhat related. It seems there's a trademark issue if the gun you're producing is going to be named "Sig (include variation here)" or "P" or "220," which again assumes some level of SigArms approval.

3) What happens to Sig warranties? I suspect liability issues follow suit, but I'm not really concerned about that now because I know from being a member here that whatever Bruce designs and builds will be of the highest quality.

4) Am I appropriate to wonder what happens if SigArms decides a 10mm pistol is a good thing and comes out with its own model? I suppose this is a double-edged sword, and maybe I'm thinking out loud, but it seems it could either be a disaster for this conversion or make it a very valuable collector's item and who's to say which is the case.

Sorry, Para, if I'm wrong to raise these questions or issues, but I'm interested in this gun, and these are issues that jumped into my head.
 
Posts: 3455 | Location: Where It's Hot & Dry | Registered: April 19, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by trover:
Am I appropriate to wonder what happens if SigArms decides a 10mm pistol is a good thing and comes out with its own model?


You're not the only one who has thought that thought. It wouldn't cost over $1800, but it wouldn't be a Grayguns creation, either. And at this moment a factory 10mm is of course mere speculation.
If it did materialize, there's still a very good chance the GGI conversion would remain the superior product and perhaps become even more sought after.

Bruce's short reset trigger was, IIRC, available for several years before SIG's, but was hardly known or appreciated. With the advent of the factory version, the value of a shorter trigger reset suddenly became much more widely known and Bruce's offering has generally been recognized as the superior one. Both of those factors have, I strongly suspect, resulted in a major upsurge in interest in GGI's modification.




“I can’t give you brains, but I can give you a diploma.”
— The Wizard of Oz
 
Posts: 39942 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of leo d.
posted Hide Post
you know i never heard of this GGI or gray guns or flork....



jk guys...

ummm, would a first gen 220ST (you know, the one with the 220 SPORT rail frame) work?


______
------
leo d.
 
Posts: 12034 | Location: N37* 39 W122* 3 | Registered: September 15, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Casuistic Thinker and Daoist
Picture of 9mmepiphany
posted Hide Post
very well as a matter of fact




No, Daoism isn't a religion



 
Posts: 13369 | Location: northern california | Registered: February 07, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of nojoy
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Grayguns I am very interested in this project and now have an excuse to buy a used or LNIB P220ST. I believe Sig stopped making those last year. Anyway you may have already mentioned this but what type of ammo are you going to use to to get this gun up and running? For me the most powerful 10mm ammo around that I can buy (50 or 500 at a time) is Doubletap. If this ST can withstand thousands of rounds of Doubletap or any other high end 10mm I am definately in. The only reason for me to get a 10mm is to shoot ammo from Doubletap. Maybe Mike at Doubletap will donate some of his 10mm ammo for this project. The more interest in the 10mm cartridge the better for business.
 
Posts: 1237 | Location: Seattle, WA 98116 | Registered: March 18, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Behold my
Radiance!
Picture of Grayguns
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
quote:
Originally posted by trover:
Am I appropriate to wonder what happens if SigArms decides a 10mm pistol is a good thing and comes out with its own model?


You're not the only one who has thought that thought. It wouldn't cost over $1800, but it wouldn't be a Grayguns creation, either. And at this moment a factory 10mm is of course mere speculation.
If it did materialize, there's still a very good chance the GGI conversion would remain the superior product and perhaps become even more sought after.

Bruce's short reset trigger was, IIRC, available for several years before SIG's, but was hardly known or appreciated. With the advent of the factory version, the value of a shorter trigger reset suddenly became much more widely known and Bruce's offering has generally been recognized as the superior one. Both of those factors have, I strongly suspect, resulted in a major upsurge in interest in GGI's modification.


I really appreciate your generous comments, Sigfreund! Thanks for bringing this up, guys, as it's interesting to us as well. We've thought of this ourselves. So far as we know, there is about zero interest at SIGARMS for producing a 10mm P-series pistol. If they thought there was wide demand for one, they would have tried to make them. It's simply not something they want to do, apparently. Nor is it easy, particularly on their level of production. The laws of economies of scale work both ways. We're doing it in part because we can, frankly. I feel fortunate to have had much experience with this sort of thing.

From our standpoint, we would welcome it if they DID decide to exploit whatever market we might help create for a 10. We obviously find plenty of things to do for our mutual customers on their existing products, and we take our role as after-market promoters of SIGARMS' interests seriously.

Sigfreund mentioned the short reset trigger concept as an example of how competition from SIGARMS might help us, and I can certainly agree. While some of our friends assumed Grayguns Inc. would be harmed by SIGARMS' introduction of their alternative SRT system, in reality it's helped us immensely by giving our potential customers something to compare our work to, while also further legitimizing and more widely popularizing the concept we originally built market awareness for.

Competition is always good! In this case, the SRT has motivated us to further develop a versatile, reliable and proven system. Much of our best work is designed to be reasonably affordable and therefore accessible, but I'd like to think that there's always a place for the sort of high grade custom work that the 10mm project represents to me personally.

To lower the price more and make our 10mm even more accessible, we'll need to make those laws of economies of scale work for us by building more pistols for y'all. That's why I'm grateful for the response we've recieved thus far. I think this will be very successful for us, and for our customers.

If SIGARMS wants in, there's room in the pool. We'd be happy to help them with it, as that's part of my committment to my friends there. We'll still have better action systems, sight options and a really reliable extractor to offer you. Wink

-Bruce




Designer and custom pistolsmith at Grayguns Inc. Privileged to be R&D consultant to the world's greatest maker of fine firearms. Now: Get some Lucas Extreme Duty Grease from Top Gun Supply and SIG Pro Shop, dammit! And remember: MOAC is coming again in 2017!

Visit us at http://opspectraining.com/product-cat/videos/ to order yours, and Thank You for making GGI the leader in custom SIG and HK pistols.

Bruce Gray, President
Grayguns Inc.
Grayguns.com / 541-468-3840
 
Posts: 9404 | Location: GGI's Secret Volcano Base near Spray, and Bruce's R&D custom shop in Reedsport, Oregon | Registered: October 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Behold my
Radiance!
Picture of Grayguns
posted Hide Post
Trover brought up an interesting, if somewhat provocative set of concerns. OK, I'll respond in detail:


quote:
Originally posted by trover:
I'm curious about a few things:

1) I don't have a P220 ST or an Elite. I understand I can either find an ST or buy an Elite, and that you may be selling complete guns, which to me seems perhaps the right way to go.
(We're working on the details of offering complete pistols. Without getting too far into this, such transactions will likely require us to re-licence as manufacturers and collect the 11% Federal tax for firearms. It thus might be more cost effective for us to only work on customer-supplied pistols, at least until we reach a point at which higher volume lets us build them more efficiently.)

But this assumes you have some sort of distribution relationship with SigArms, which assumes some sort of level of approval of what you're doing (modification wise), and I'm wondering if these assumptions are correct and if so what you think pricing might be for the complete gun? Whew! Lotta stuff there....
(Incorrect. We can purchase SIGARMS products as can any reputable dealer in good standing. This project is not sanctioned by SIGARMS. I suspect they are right pleased to sell us some parts
and might be flat delighted to sell us 100 P220 Elites at a whack if it gets to that point, but this particular project isn't otherwise a mutual venture.)

2) Somewhat related. It seems there's a trademark issue if the gun you're producing is going to be named "Sig (include variation here)" or "P" or "220," which again assumes some level of SigArms approval.
(Non-issue. We're careful NOT to imply such approval or cloak our work in their imprimatur where it doesn't exist! Of course we must use commonly accepted terms to identify the products we work on, but beyond that we won't knowingly infringe on their trademarks in any way. We've never had any issue with SIGARMS over such things, and I run stuff like this past certain individuals to ensure we're doing things properly and for mutual benefit where possible. We do enjoy a great relationship with SIGARMS that trumps any other agenda.)

3) What happens to Sig warranties? I suspect liability issues follow suit, but I'm not really concerned about that now because I know from being a member here that whatever Bruce designs and builds will be of the highest quality.
(Thank you! I hope so, because it could be hard on us if it isn't! See, we warrant everything we do for as long as you own it (exception: if you kill it yourself through mishandling, we'll still be very nice to you, but you might be asked to buy some parts), just as I always have for over 30 years before Grayguns Inc. was formed three years ago. We might limit our warranty to a set period, say 5 years for this pistol only due to the gun-eating nature of the 10mm caliber, but I am leaning towards not changing a thing. Though theirs is quite good, I think our warranty stands well in comparison to SIGARMS', and I've never regretted offering it. We do make mistakes now and then, as the Lord made only one perfect man, but we're there for you. So is SIGARMS, but I can't expect they will warrant this conversion. What counts is WE WILL.)

4) Am I appropriate to wonder what happens if SigArms decides a 10mm pistol is a good thing and comes out with its own model? I suppose this is a double-edged sword, and maybe I'm thinking out loud, but it seems it could either be a disaster for this conversion or make it a very valuable collector's item and who's to say which is the case.
(Flork sez, "Grow a pair and bring it on!" I'm a bit more reserved, but I will say we're highly confident in this project's technical success, market appeal and percieved value. I think I answered that question, as did Sigfreund. I'll add only that I've built many, many serviceable Colt Delta Elites into high grade custom pistols. It's all good!)

Sorry, Para, if I'm wrong to raise these questions or issues, but I'm interested in this gun, and these are issues that jumped into my head.


-Bruce




Designer and custom pistolsmith at Grayguns Inc. Privileged to be R&D consultant to the world's greatest maker of fine firearms. Now: Get some Lucas Extreme Duty Grease from Top Gun Supply and SIG Pro Shop, dammit! And remember: MOAC is coming again in 2017!

Visit us at http://opspectraining.com/product-cat/videos/ to order yours, and Thank You for making GGI the leader in custom SIG and HK pistols.

Bruce Gray, President
Grayguns Inc.
Grayguns.com / 541-468-3840
 
Posts: 9404 | Location: GGI's Secret Volcano Base near Spray, and Bruce's R&D custom shop in Reedsport, Oregon | Registered: October 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Behold my
Radiance!
Picture of Grayguns
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by nojoy:
Grayguns I am very interested in this project and now have an excuse to buy a used or LNIB P220ST. I believe Sig stopped making those last year. Anyway you may have already mentioned this but what type of ammo are you going to use to to get this gun up and running? For me the most powerful 10mm ammo around that I can buy (50 or 500 at a time) is Doubletap. If this ST can withstand thousands of rounds of Doubletap or any other high end 10mm I am definately in. The only reason for me to get a 10mm is to shoot ammo from Doubletap. Maybe Mike at Doubletap will donate some of his 10mm ammo for this project. The more interest in the 10mm cartridge the better for business.


Hiya and thank you for your interest. I assume you hunt? If your application requires you to run a constant and relatively heavy diet of full-on 10mm Norma as exemplified in DoubleTap's loads, a custom Delta Elite might be a better, more durable choice.

Yes, I believe our testing will continue to demonstrate that our 10mm P-series will handle situational use of this ultra hot ammo reliably, but it's unrealistic to expect that this stuff won't accelerate wear and decrease service life if that's all you plan to run through it.

It's all about quantity. How many rounds of this hot stuff do you anticipate shooting over the planned service life of your pistol? Perhaps we'd be OK, but I am building these with the expectation that they will see a mix of loads, with the larger measure being -210PF training and defense ammo.

I personally view full-power 10mm Norma loads as a bit much for self defense applications, whereas our pistol will handle enough of these to be proven and effective for ordinary hunting applications.

-Bruce




Designer and custom pistolsmith at Grayguns Inc. Privileged to be R&D consultant to the world's greatest maker of fine firearms. Now: Get some Lucas Extreme Duty Grease from Top Gun Supply and SIG Pro Shop, dammit! And remember: MOAC is coming again in 2017!

Visit us at http://opspectraining.com/product-cat/videos/ to order yours, and Thank You for making GGI the leader in custom SIG and HK pistols.

Bruce Gray, President
Grayguns Inc.
Grayguns.com / 541-468-3840
 
Posts: 9404 | Location: GGI's Secret Volcano Base near Spray, and Bruce's R&D custom shop in Reedsport, Oregon | Registered: October 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Cogito ergo sum
Picture of trover
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Grayguns:
Trover brought up an interesting, if somewhat provocative set of concerns. OK, I'll respond in detail:


Thank you, Bruce. Your answers make sense, and I greatly appreciate the time you took to give me sound responses. I didn't mean to seem impertinent; I've had a lifetime of dealing with such questions, and I was curious how you were handling them. I look forward to hearing more about the gun.
 
Posts: 3455 | Location: Where It's Hot & Dry | Registered: April 19, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
LIBERTATEM DEFENDIMUS
Picture of Belgian Blue
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I've got a technical question of sorts...

When it was originally introduced, the P220 Combat was said to have an improved, more durable locking block.

I'm guessing most P220STs have the standard P220 locking block.

Do you have any plans to modify, upgrade or strengthen the locking block of the pistols you convert to 10mm?
 
Posts: 4981 | Registered: October 18, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Flork
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Belgian Blue:
Do you have any plans to modify, upgrade or strengthen the locking block of the pistols you convert to 10mm?


We're going to use a beefed up take down lever for sure. As for the locking block insert, we still need to evaluate that.


------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
Scott @ Apex
-------------------------------------------
"Own enough guns that your wife will never notice a gun or 2 being added or taken away from the collection."
Leonard Novak - "Thee Gambler" (SASS)
------------------------------------------------

My guides to Sig Lubrication: http://www.apextactical.com/bl...-sauer-pistol-rails/

http://www.apextactical.com/bl...nternal-lubrication/
 
Posts: 3489 | Location: Apex Tactical Specialties - Peoria, AZ | Registered: June 01, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of nojoy
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Thanks Grayguns for the feedback. I do not plan on hunting with the 10mm, but it would be used as a back up in hunting situations. The 10mm is one of the few automatic rounds to be flexible engought for personal defence for 2 and 4 legged animals. The other is a 45acp/45 Super combo-but Super is really hard to find now that Texas Ammo is out of business. As to fireing full powered loads out of this conversion, realistically it would be no more than 10,000.
 
Posts: 1237 | Location: Seattle, WA 98116 | Registered: March 18, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Behold my
Radiance!
Picture of Grayguns
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Belgian Blue:
I've got a technical question of sorts...

When it was originally introduced, the P220 Combat was said to have an improved, more durable locking block.

I'm guessing most P220STs have the standard P220 locking block.

Do you have any plans to modify, upgrade or strengthen the locking block of the pistols you convert to 10mm?


You betcha. -Bruce




Designer and custom pistolsmith at Grayguns Inc. Privileged to be R&D consultant to the world's greatest maker of fine firearms. Now: Get some Lucas Extreme Duty Grease from Top Gun Supply and SIG Pro Shop, dammit! And remember: MOAC is coming again in 2017!

Visit us at http://opspectraining.com/product-cat/videos/ to order yours, and Thank You for making GGI the leader in custom SIG and HK pistols.

Bruce Gray, President
Grayguns Inc.
Grayguns.com / 541-468-3840
 
Posts: 9404 | Location: GGI's Secret Volcano Base near Spray, and Bruce's R&D custom shop in Reedsport, Oregon | Registered: October 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Thanks for that bit of information guys. I really want to own one of these one day! I'll have to check if I can own a 10mm firearm here first and then check on procedures to have one imported if it's possible. It'll cost a pretty penny if it's possible, but I'm willing to save and buy one. Keep me posted on new developments! And thanks again!!!
 
Posts: 160 | Registered: June 29, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Do you guys mind if I share the link to this thread to my friends at guns and ammo?
I mentioned that the 10mm conversion was being done, but didn't mention anything else......have to get permission from you guys before doing it. That's just me.....
 
Posts: 160 | Registered: June 29, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Flork
posted Hide Post
Go for it!!

A gun writer (can't say who) just did an article about a 229 we did for him and mentions the 10mm project in there. Just make sure to tell your buddies to plug Sigforum.com and recognize that we are doing this because the members of Sigforum.com requested it so ferociously.

Scott


------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
Scott @ Apex
-------------------------------------------
"Own enough guns that your wife will never notice a gun or 2 being added or taken away from the collection."
Leonard Novak - "Thee Gambler" (SASS)
------------------------------------------------

My guides to Sig Lubrication: http://www.apextactical.com/bl...-sauer-pistol-rails/

http://www.apextactical.com/bl...nternal-lubrication/
 
Posts: 3489 | Location: Apex Tactical Specialties - Peoria, AZ | Registered: June 01, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
Thanks and will do!!
 
Posts: 160 | Registered: June 29, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
Please excuse the ignorance but-

I’ve never shot a 10mm. I’ve shot 9mm, .40 s+w, .357 sig, .38 and .357 magnum. So is this going to be fun to shoot or a mini-howitzer with a grip?

Maybe the desire was because it didn’t exist. I’m trying to put it into perspective- is it going to be something that’s powerful but still fun to shoot or is it going to be something that instills fear- in me the shooter?


Thanks Mitch


____________________________________________________

The butcher with the sharpest knife has the warmest heart.
 
Posts: 11728 | Location: Bottom of Lake Washington | Registered: March 06, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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