SIGforum.com    Main Page  Hop To Forum Categories  SIG Pistols    The 10mm SIG 220ST Project
Page 1 2 3 4 5 ... 65

Moderators: Chris Orndorff, LDD
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
The 10mm SIG 220ST Project Login/Join 
The Original
Picture of Sigs-R-Us ®
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by ARMT Guy:
quote:
Originally posted by Oat_Action_Man:
Now it's time to see how many of those "Damn it, SIG, make a 10mm" people put their money where their mouths are. Wink

Oat


That's exactly what I thought when I read about this. Big Grin

Now, hopefully, this'll keep those 10mm Mafia types quiet! Razz


+1


***("Ringo") You wretched slugs. Don't any of ya have the guts to play for blood? " ("Doc") I'm your huckleberry. That's just my game " ***
 
Posts: 244 | Location: Riverside, CA | Registered: February 28, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Peace through
superior firepower
Picture of parabellum
posted Hide Post
Guys, don't clutter this thread with this stuff. Everyone gets it. Some have been demanding such a gun for a long time, and now it's time to pony up. OK, it's been said, and it doesn't need to be repeated. Please keep the replies in this thread on topic.
 
Posts: 76677 | Registered: January 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Shinobi
posted Hide Post
This question may have been posed before so I apologize in advance if this is a repeat. I was wondering if the P220 platform was chosen because of the length needed for slide travel or would this conversion be possible on a P226 stainless in .40 ? I like the idea of a double stacked magazine personally. However I wouldn't go as far as to sacrifice safety of a firearm for capacity. I just wish I could get a 15 round 10mm sig like glock that isnt a glock Smile.

I do give major cudos to GGI for bringing use the first 10mm sig ever I imagine alot of time went into this project. I may be nabbing up a P220 Elite to get this conversion done in the future.

Regards,

Shin
 
Posts: 124 | Location: Louisiana | Registered: February 02, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Dobbler
posted Hide Post
I think you should bring a prototype to the September IDPA match Wink


____________________________________________________________________________
Yeah, I'm still around...
 
Posts: 4132 | Location: Portland "130 square miles surrounded by reality" Oregon | Registered: August 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Flork
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Dobbler:
I think you should bring a prototype to the September IDPA match Wink


Rob,

You goin to the IDPA match this weekend?? I was gonna go, but I got roped into being on patrol this weekend and being the bouncer at the beer garden for the Fossil County Fair. Torie might go to the match without me though.

The prototype will not be ready be the September IDPA match, but I hope to have it for other bigger occasions in the near future.


------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
Scott @ Apex
-------------------------------------------
"Own enough guns that your wife will never notice a gun or 2 being added or taken away from the collection."
Leonard Novak - "Thee Gambler" (SASS)
------------------------------------------------

My guides to Sig Lubrication: http://www.apextactical.com/bl...-sauer-pistol-rails/

http://www.apextactical.com/bl...nternal-lubrication/
 
Posts: 3472 | Location: Apex Tactical Specialties - Los Osos, CA | Registered: June 01, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Behold my
Radiance!
Picture of Grayguns
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by nwohsy:
What would be the cost for a frame? I don't have a stainless donor gun, so this would have to be a ground up build for me.


Thanks for asking! We might be able to supply complete pistols in the future and are working towards that end. For now, your best and most cost-effective bet might be to find a pre-owned P220ST, or perhaps go for it and build on a new P220 Stainess Elite.

-Bruce


Designer and custom pistolsmith at Grayguns Inc. Privileged to be R&D consultant to the world's greatest maker of fine firearms. Now: Get some Lucas Extreme Duty Grease from Top Gun Supply and SIG Pro Shop, dammit! And remember: MOAC is coming again in 2017!



Visit us at http://opspectraining.com/product-cat/videos/ to order yours, and Thank You for making GGI the leader in custom SIG and HK pistols.

Bruce Gray, President
Grayguns Inc.
Grayguns.com / 541-468-3840
 
Posts: 9212 | Location: GGI's Secret Volcano Base near Spray, and Bruce's R&D custom shop in Reedsport, Oregon | Registered: October 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Behold my
Radiance!
Picture of Grayguns
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Flork:
quote:
Originally posted by Dobbler:
I think you should bring a prototype to the September IDPA match Wink


Rob,

You goin to the IDPA match this weekend?? I was gonna go, but I got roped into being on patrol this weekend and being the bouncer at the beer garden for the Fossil County Fair. Torie might go to the match without me though.

The prototype will not be ready be the September IDPA match, but I hope to have it for other bigger occasions in the near future.


We're going to publicly demonstrate the 10mm P220ST at our October SIGARMS Academy class.
-Bruce


Designer and custom pistolsmith at Grayguns Inc. Privileged to be R&D consultant to the world's greatest maker of fine firearms. Now: Get some Lucas Extreme Duty Grease from Top Gun Supply and SIG Pro Shop, dammit! And remember: MOAC is coming again in 2017!



Visit us at http://opspectraining.com/product-cat/videos/ to order yours, and Thank You for making GGI the leader in custom SIG and HK pistols.

Bruce Gray, President
Grayguns Inc.
Grayguns.com / 541-468-3840
 
Posts: 9212 | Location: GGI's Secret Volcano Base near Spray, and Bruce's R&D custom shop in Reedsport, Oregon | Registered: October 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Behold my
Radiance!
Picture of Grayguns
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
quote:
Stainless frame Sig P220 which would need to be supplied by the customer or purchased from us by the customer for retail price.


Note that it says "stainless frame ... P220," not "stainless P220 frame."
I interpret that as saying the customer must supply a complete P220ST pistol for the project or purchase a complete pistol from Grayguns.


Yes, indeed. Thanks for that clarification, my friend.

-Bruce


Designer and custom pistolsmith at Grayguns Inc. Privileged to be R&D consultant to the world's greatest maker of fine firearms. Now: Get some Lucas Extreme Duty Grease from Top Gun Supply and SIG Pro Shop, dammit! And remember: MOAC is coming again in 2017!



Visit us at http://opspectraining.com/product-cat/videos/ to order yours, and Thank You for making GGI the leader in custom SIG and HK pistols.

Bruce Gray, President
Grayguns Inc.
Grayguns.com / 541-468-3840
 
Posts: 9212 | Location: GGI's Secret Volcano Base near Spray, and Bruce's R&D custom shop in Reedsport, Oregon | Registered: October 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Flork
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by treelogger:
For a California resident: To start this project, I would need to supply a Sig 220 with a stainless steel frame. That's because I can't have GGI buy the 220 in Oregon, modify and, and then transfer it across state lines to a California FFL, because a 220 in 10mm is not on the California Roster of handguns, therefore it can not be imported into the state.

But what if I don't have a 220 in stainless yet? That's where the problem arises. On the roster, there are two stainless frame models: The "P220 (Stainless) Sport / Stainless Steel" (which has a 5.5inch barrel and long slide and is therefore not eligible for this conversion), and the "P220 (Stainless) / Stainless Steel" with the 4.4 inch barrel (that's probably what's colloquially known as the P220ST).

The problem is: As far as I can see, neither of those two models is sold by Sigarms any longer. On Sigarms web site, the only 220 with a stainless frame I can find is the 220 Elite Stainless, which is not (and probably will not be) California approved.

If this analysis is correct, then the only way for a Californian to participate in this would be to find a stainless 220 on the used market (perhaps including Sig CPO, but I find it unlikely to find a stainless gun among the law enforcement trade-ins).

I'm not sure if Sigarms has CPOs which are all stainless models, but you might call and ask.

We are more than willing to do the 10mm conversion on the 5" barrel gun. We will have to find out how much more expensive the barrel will be, but that can be done relatively easily. We would also need to add some weight to the slide to make the gun cycle properly, but we're up for it. Are you seriously interrested in the conversion?

Is this correct?

While we are at it: How difficult would it be to do have Bar-Sto make a few 5.5" barrels, and perform the conversion on the long-slide version of the P220 stainless?


I'm not sure if Sigarms has CPOs which are all stainless models, but you might call and ask.

We are planning to do the 10mm conversion in a long slide platform, but we're going to have to do it on a stainless frame, due to concerns with vibrations and torque under recoil.

Your best bet would be to scour the market in CA for 220ST pistols and pickup one if you want it done in CA.


------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
Scott @ Apex
-------------------------------------------
"Own enough guns that your wife will never notice a gun or 2 being added or taken away from the collection."
Leonard Novak - "Thee Gambler" (SASS)
------------------------------------------------

My guides to Sig Lubrication: http://www.apextactical.com/bl...-sauer-pistol-rails/

http://www.apextactical.com/bl...nternal-lubrication/
 
Posts: 3472 | Location: Apex Tactical Specialties - Los Osos, CA | Registered: June 01, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Dobbler
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Flork:
quote:
Originally posted by Dobbler:
I think you should bring a prototype to the September IDPA match Wink


Rob,

You goin to the IDPA match this weekend?? I was gonna go, but I got roped into being on patrol this weekend and being the bouncer at the beer garden for the Fossil County Fair. Torie might go to the match without me though.

The prototype will not be ready be the September IDPA match, but I hope to have it for other bigger occasions in the near future.


We're booked for a family engagement this weekend, so no IDPA for us. We ARE planning to be at the September match. That gives me a month to catch up on dry firing Frown


____________________________________________________________________________
Yeah, I'm still around...
 
Posts: 4132 | Location: Portland "130 square miles surrounded by reality" Oregon | Registered: August 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Behold my
Radiance!
Picture of Grayguns
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Xer0:
Rather than doing all the fancy work on the breech face of the P220 slide, wouldn't it have been easier to just mill out the area in a stainless slide amd put in the breech block of a p220 38 super? The rim specifications are very close (.406 for 38 super versus .425 for 10mm).

With the 38 super breech block out of the slide, its much easier to mill a an extra .019 out of sides of the 38 super breech face than having to weld and recut the hard-to-reach internal area of a stainless slide (not to mention custom extractor requirements). If the fear would be inset breech block movement, then small locking engagements could easily be milled into the slide cut that match and engage similar cuts in the the 38 super breech block. This combo would still be heavier than a standard folded slide to retain the mass needed for 10mm lockup.

In addition, the 38 super extractor would probably need no work to work properly (it's not going to be able to tell the difference beteen .0095 inch (1/2 radius difference between the 2 cartridges. Then just put the p220 38 super ejector on the stainless frame.

As it's eaier to mill out a nice tight square in the slide, the 38 super breech block could be nice and tight. With a simple switch to a the slightly larger diameter solid pin would ensure no movement under firing.

The 38 super mags will proably hold the 10mm cartridge just fine, so very minimal modification should be needed (although the frame would need to be punched out in grip area to accomidate the 38 super mags (which you probably have to do anyways for custom mags as the cartridge length is longer than the .45.

A higher rated recoil spring with heavy guide rod would help tame the 10mm full-house loads. This would seem to be an easier solution than all the custom work directly on the breech face and needing custom extractors. Of course it's all conjecture..

Heck, it would seem easier to easier (re: cheaper) to mill a brand new custom copy of 38 super breech block (in 10mm breech face dimensions) that fits into a custom cutout of a stainless slide, than play with weldup and recut and other custom work you need to do on the .45 breech face and extractor. Could even make it of tungsten to add more lockup mass. Kinda of a "why redesign the wheel thing" and then parts availability would also go up if many interchanged (like extractors and magazines).

Just my two cents! Would still love to have one...


Hiya! Great ideas, thank you. Your thoughts give me an opportunity to discuss what we can reveal about our approach and explain some whys and hows.

First, the slide. Besides being much too light for this application, the older stamped steel slides flex an amazing amount under recoil. I wouldn't have believed how much they flex if I hadn't watched high speed videos of this characteristic at SIGARMS.

They certainly lack the stiffness to handle the 10mm Norma cartridge. Even though we've rated our pistol for continuous use with more moderate defensive factory loads of less that 210 power factor, our 10mm must still be able to handle full-on 10mm Norma stuff on occasion, else we shouldn't lay claim as the keepers of the true 10mm faith.

Milling out a stainless slide to accept an old school .38 Super breech block would be a very, very difficult job to execute perfectly, and it would reintroduce some of the flexing issues we need to avoid. We thought of this and rejected it for that and other reasons, but it's a logical idea on it's (breech)face.

The current extractor design used in all internal-extractor P-series pistols is something we have been working to improve, and I'm pleased to report as a side note that we're winning that battle.

Now that we have a highly reliable replacement for the .45's going into production, it was easy enough to develop a version specifically for our 10mm project. The old-school extractor system from the stamped slides won't exert quite enough tension for our needs as-is, and the current SIG extractor can't be tensioned enough to be adequately reliable without inducing feeding malfunctions. Thus, there's no adavantage for us to adapt a factory part as a cost-saving compromise.

During a somewhat eccentric lifetime devoted to learning odd things, I did spend time in college getting a minor degree in welding metallurgy, and was a nuclear certified welder back in the day. As it happens, Flork is an aerospace EDM machinist of high order. The very simple breechface spacing modification we've worked out is well within our capabilities and will not compromise the integrity of the slide in any way. What it does do is allow us to utilize an otherwise very suitable slide that already fits your frame and holster, and permits us to keep the cost of this conversion reasonable and accessible to the throngs of Forum members who've called for a 10mm SIG.

Mags: Again, why compromise? Our goal isn't to produce a pistol for a price, but to produce a fully proven, reliable service pistol that fulfills the promise of both the excellent P220 Stainless and the 10mm cartridge. That means we needed a magazine that truly fits the pistol and properly times, positions and supports the touchy 10mm round. If this pistol isn't reliable, it's not worth building.

We're making mags from proper 10mm 1911 blanks and adapting the frame to accept them perfectly. For what they are, these mags should be a strong value that will help ensure reliability.

We're not redesiging the wheel here. We're just making it round.

-Bruce


Designer and custom pistolsmith at Grayguns Inc. Privileged to be R&D consultant to the world's greatest maker of fine firearms. Now: Get some Lucas Extreme Duty Grease from Top Gun Supply and SIG Pro Shop, dammit! And remember: MOAC is coming again in 2017!



Visit us at http://opspectraining.com/product-cat/videos/ to order yours, and Thank You for making GGI the leader in custom SIG and HK pistols.

Bruce Gray, President
Grayguns Inc.
Grayguns.com / 541-468-3840
 
Posts: 9212 | Location: GGI's Secret Volcano Base near Spray, and Bruce's R&D custom shop in Reedsport, Oregon | Registered: October 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of SIGPILOT
posted Hide Post
Everytime you mention a GGI 10mm Sig, God brings a dead kitten back to life.



Rules still apply to God killing kittens if you mention a 10mm Sig made by Sig. Big Grin



"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." Alexander Hamilton
 
Posts: 998 | Registered: November 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member!
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Grayguns:
Hiya! Great ideas, thank you. Your thoughts give me an opportunity to discuss what we can reveal about our approach and explain some whys and hows.

First, the slide. Besides being much too light for this application, the older stamped steel slides flex an amazing amount under recoil. I wouldn't have believed how much they flex if I hadn't watched high speed videos of this characteristic at SIGARMS.

They certainly lack the stiffness to handle the 10mm Norma cartridge. Even though we've rated our pistol for continuous use with more moderate defensive factory loads of less that 210 power factor, our 10mm must still be able to handle full-on 10mm Norma stuff on occasion, else we shouldn't lay claim as the keepers of the true 10mm faith.

Milling out a stainless slide to accept an old school .38 Super breech block would be a very, very difficult job to execute perfectly, and it would reintroduce some of the flexing issues we need to avoid. We thought of this and rejected it for that and other reasons, but it's a logical idea on it's (breech)face.

The current extractor design used in all internal-extractor P-series pistols is something we have been working to improve, and I'm pleased to report as a side note that we're winning that battle.

Now that we have a highly reliable replacement for the .45's going into production, it was easy enough to develop a version specifically for our 10mm project. The old-school extractor system from the stamped slides won't exert quite enough tension for our needs as-is, and the current SIG extractor can't be tensioned enough to be adequately reliable without inducing feeding malfunctions. Thus, there's no adavantage for us to adapt a factory part as a cost-saving compromise.

During a somewhat eccentric lifetime devoted to learning odd things, I did spend time in college getting a minor degree in welding metallurgy, and was a nuclear certified welder back in the day. As it happens, Flork is an aerospace EDM machinist of high order. The very simple breechface spacing modification we've worked out is well within our capabilities and will not compromise the integrity of the slide in any way. What it does do is allow us to utilize an otherwise very suitable slide that already fits your frame and holster, and permits us to keep the cost of this conversion reasonable and accessible to the throngs of Forum members who've called for a 10mm SIG.

Mags: Again, why compromise? Our goal isn't to produce a pistol for a price, but to produce a fully proven, reliable service pistol that fulfills the promise of both the excellent P220 Stainless and the 10mm cartridge. That means we needed a magazine that truly fits the pistol and properly times, positions and supports the touchy 10mm round. If this pistol isn't reliable, it's not worth building.

We're making mags from proper 10mm 1911 blanks and adapting the frame to accept them perfectly. For what they are, these mags should be a strong value that will help ensure reliability.

We're not redesiging the wheel here. We're just making it round.

-Bruce


Thanks for the explanation/info. Sounds like it will be a great pistol!
 
Posts: 3756 | Location: Boise, ID USA | Registered: February 14, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Void Where Prohibited
Picture of WaterburyBob
posted Hide Post
Can you give us a price for a Gray Guns supplied stainless 220 plus the standard ($992) package?

I would like to be able to just order the complete project from you; it would be nice to know the total cost for that up front.



"If Gun Control worked, Chicago would look like Mayberry, not Thunderdome" - Cam Edwards
 
Posts: 14204 | Location: Under the Boot of Tyranny in Connectistan | Registered: February 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Behold my
Radiance!
Picture of Grayguns
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Shinobi:
This question may have been posed before so I apologize in advance if this is a repeat. I was wondering if the P220 platform was chosen because of the length needed for slide travel or would this conversion be possible on a P226 stainless in .40 ? I like the idea of a double stacked magazine personally. However I wouldn't go as far as to sacrifice safety of a firearm for capacity. I just wish I could get a 15 round 10mm sig like glock that isnt a glock Smile.

I do give major cudos to GGI for bringing use the first 10mm sig ever I imagine alot of time went into this project. I may be nabbing up a P220 Elite to get this conversion done in the future.

Regards,

Shin


Hiya! The P226 magazine mortise isn't long enough to accept any sort of 10mm magazine or cartridge. We have looked at a .45 GAP conversion for the P226, but it doesn't answer the "why?" question, and the 45 GAP seems to have not cptured the interest Glock thought it would. A 15 round 10mm would be neat, but 9 or 10 rounds seems enough to me.

-Bruce


Designer and custom pistolsmith at Grayguns Inc. Privileged to be R&D consultant to the world's greatest maker of fine firearms. Now: Get some Lucas Extreme Duty Grease from Top Gun Supply and SIG Pro Shop, dammit! And remember: MOAC is coming again in 2017!



Visit us at http://opspectraining.com/product-cat/videos/ to order yours, and Thank You for making GGI the leader in custom SIG and HK pistols.

Bruce Gray, President
Grayguns Inc.
Grayguns.com / 541-468-3840
 
Posts: 9212 | Location: GGI's Secret Volcano Base near Spray, and Bruce's R&D custom shop in Reedsport, Oregon | Registered: October 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Behold my
Radiance!
Picture of Grayguns
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by WaterburyBob:
Can you give us a price for a Gray Guns supplied stainless 220 plus the standard ($992) package?

I would like to be able to just order the complete project from you; it would be nice to know the total cost for that up front.


Thank you! We're working on the logistics of offering completed pistols. More on that soon, but for now we could help guide you towards making the appropriate purchase from one of our friendly suppliers who could then ship to us for our work. This would be no problem, though it adds but a little to the expense and hassles involved.

-Bruce


Designer and custom pistolsmith at Grayguns Inc. Privileged to be R&D consultant to the world's greatest maker of fine firearms. Now: Get some Lucas Extreme Duty Grease from Top Gun Supply and SIG Pro Shop, dammit! And remember: MOAC is coming again in 2017!



Visit us at http://opspectraining.com/product-cat/videos/ to order yours, and Thank You for making GGI the leader in custom SIG and HK pistols.

Bruce Gray, President
Grayguns Inc.
Grayguns.com / 541-468-3840
 
Posts: 9212 | Location: GGI's Secret Volcano Base near Spray, and Bruce's R&D custom shop in Reedsport, Oregon | Registered: October 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
LIBERTATEM DEFENDIMUS
Picture of Belgian Blue
posted Hide Post
This is GREAT news! Cool Cool Cool

Now the search begins for a P220ST. Big Grin

I'm glad to hear this project is on the horizon.

I'm also pleased to hear that you guys are working on an improved P220ST extractor. THAT in itself is quite newsworthy.

Just for clarification... The council of 8 does get first priority, right? Wink
 
Posts: 4843 | Registered: October 18, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
W07VH5
Picture of mark123
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Shinobi:
... I do give major cudos to GGI for bringing use the first 10mm sig ever ...
It's not the first. It may be the first that works properly but it's not the first. Smile

Someone on here thought it was a simple barrel swap and ordered one from Barsto a few (3? 4?) years back. I wish I knew who it was because I want to buy that barrel. Wink

But you are right, Shinobi. Kudos to GGI. I wish I could justify the cost. Of course it may be worth it just to have a P220ST that actually works.
 
Posts: 39664 | Location: Pennsyltucky | Registered: December 05, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Banned. This ex-member has a history of failing to deliver on goods and promises
posted Hide Post
Bruce,

I understand the older folded slide not being able to withstand the torque of the 10mm, but what do you really think of the suitability of an aluminum frame given adequate recoil spring weight and perhaps a tungsten guide rod?

BTW, put me on the list for one in whatever configuration you decide on! Big Grin
 
Posts: 647 | Location: Gator Country! | Registered: May 30, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Banned. This ex-member has a history of failing to deliver on goods and promises
posted Hide Post
.......Or, would it be considered sacrilege to modify a P220 Langdon? Cool
 
Posts: 647 | Location: Gator Country! | Registered: May 30, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 2 3 4 5 ... 65 
 

SIGforum.com    Main Page  Hop To Forum Categories  SIG Pistols    The 10mm SIG 220ST Project

© SIGforum 2017