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new Springfield Armory Hellcat 11+1 pistol, competition for P365 Login/Join 
Fighting the good fight
Picture of RogueJSK
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quote:
Originally posted by Biggy:
To *me* the main selling point of concealability of all these subcompact length grip frame pistols, is also their biggest weakness. Using their flush fit mags, they are slower to get a good quick grip on and draw with, are slower to do mag changes with, and are generally harder to control and shoot accurately fast, than say more of a compact sized grip length like a 365XL or Glock 43X, where you can get a full grip on them when using their standard flush fit mags. IMHO, if you are using a good belt and holster combination with lets say the above two pistols,you loose very little in the way of concealability to these smaller subcompact pistols, and with none of their drawbacks. IMHO, every size of pistol is a compromise somewhere.


I'll agree with some of that.

Normally, I prefer the full grip and higher capacity of a mid-sized compact, like a G19 or P320 Compact. But there are times when it's handy to be able to slip a 10+1 P365 or 11+1 Hellcat into your pocket. Personally, I use my P365 for times when I'm not wearing a belt, like while going to the gym, mowing the yard, making a quick run to the gas station, etc. I also occasionally use it when attending a more formal event where I need to tuck in my shirt.

Something like a P365XL or G43X is too large to pocket carry. And if you're going to be carrying a gun exclusively on the belt anyway, you don't really lose anything by going with the slightly larger/wider and slightly higher capacity mid-sized double stack compacts (G19 et al).

So unless you're one of those stick figure guys who truly can't conceal the slight extra width of a G19-style compact, I don't see much point to something like a P365XL or G43X, when you could carry a G19-style compact on the belt and then have the option of carrying the smaller P365/Hellcat in the pocket when belt carry isn't desired or isn't an option.

Or, if you're one of those guys who wants only one carry gun, then the P365/Hellcat can do it all reasonably well, from pocket to belt and everything in between, whereas the P365XL/G43X/G19/etc. cannot since they can't be pocketed. (You can make the P365 grip larger/higher capacity by adding a 15 round magazine with sleeve, but you can't do the reverse with those others.)
 
Posts: 23890 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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To me, a Glock 43x using the new Shield Arms 15rd flush fit mags is a hard all around combo to beat for year around concealed carry. Pocket guns have their place, depending on your pocket size and how fast you need to get it in action. I like my two G19's, G43X and 365,and they all have their place,but for me, the G43x with the Shield Arms flush fit 15rd mags, checks the most boxes of all of them.
 
Posts: 313 | Location: Ohio | Registered: November 01, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Oriental Redneck
Picture of 12131
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Biggy:
To me, a Glock 43x using the new Shield Arms 15rd flush fit mags is a hard all around combo to beat for year around concealed carry. Pocket guns have their place, depending on your pocket size and how fast you need to get it in action. I like my two G19's, G43X and 365,and they all have their place,but for me, the G43x with the Shield Arms flush fit 15rd mags, checks the most boxes of all of them.

So, how much longer is the 15-rd flush fit 43x mag going to be vaporware? Are they still waiting for investors?
 
Posts: 18931 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: September 04, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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That looks interesting. I like it. I wonder if S.A. will have the same deals,(magazine deal), with that as they did/do with their other guns
 
Posts: 4964 | Location: Treasure Coast,Fl. | Registered: July 04, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Sourkraut
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I’m usually not an early adopter (thank goodness, think Sig P938 and P365), but I’ll make an exception for this Springfield. I’ve not had any issues with their new releases and I believe the Hellcat has a lot going for it. The extra round is NOT my motivating factor.


"Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die." Joe Louis
 
Posts: 585 | Location: Idaho | Registered: January 17, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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You folks are weird, I was never mad about yoga pants.

While I've never picked up on XDs they work well and I've shot them well in the past. This is interesting but we'll see what happens when they hit the market and get tested.


~You are thoroughly confused. Even your confusion is confused. You're confused squared. -Para~
 
Posts: 2079 | Location: Pnw | Registered: March 21, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The mag concept came out years earlier as the subcompact Caracal. It was never brought over here, but it wa 0.9” wide or 23.5 mm, an inch is 25.4 mm for comparison. It was 4.4” in Height with 6.3” OAL. It held 13 rounds!! How, that same well known taper. The secret was a concentrically wound spring that would collapse down upon itself and not “bunch” up taking up unnecessary cartridge space.

Magazine for a firearm
Patent number: 7797871
Abstract: A magazine for improved stacking capacity includes a housing, a front wall connected to a back wall by sidewalls, a base, a spring adapted to be received inside a recess in the base in order to reduce the space occupied by the spring. The spring having various spiral sections wherein the spiral section having different lengths so that the spiral sections fit into each other when the spring is compressed against cartridges in order to enable stacking of additional cartridges.
Type: Grant
Filed: February 7, 2005
Date of Patent: September 21, 2010
Assignee: Caracal International LLC
Inventor: Wilhelm Bubits

SIG did nothing novel.
 
Posts: 1089 | Location: Roswell,GA,USA | Registered: November 14, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Anubismp:
You folks are weird, I was never mad about yoga pants.

While I've never picked up on XDs they work well and I've shot them well in the past. This is interesting but we'll see what happens when they hit the market and get tested.


^^ while I agree yoga pants have nothing to do with whether I purchase a new firearm I’m definitely not hating any company for adding them into their promotions. There’s a reason many companies use beautiful girls in tight fitting clothing, because it’s more appealing for someone to stop and watch their promo than if I was to roll out there with my beer belly shooting their guns.

Oh back to the hellcat. I got 500 emails this morning from every vendor/website that has my email about this pistol. Looks interesting and I’ve never had any problems with any of my previous Springfield guns so it should be interesting to see them when they come out. I’ll probably wait until it’s part of a gear up program to purchase just because I don’t NEED another high capacity compact pistol.
 
Posts: 879 | Location: Arizona | Registered: January 31, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
We gonna get some
oojima in this house!
Picture of smithnsig
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by 12131:
quote:
Originally posted by Biggy:
To me, a Glock 43x using the new Shield Arms 15rd flush fit mags is a hard all around combo to beat for year around concealed carry. Pocket guns have their place, depending on your pocket size and how fast you need to get it in action. I like my two G19's, G43X and 365,and they all have their place,but for me, the G43x with the Shield Arms flush fit 15rd mags, checks the most boxes of all of them.

So, how much longer is the 15-rd flush fit 43x mag going to be vaporware? Are they still waiting for investors?


Taking pre orders. Word from some is that Mec Gar is the manufacturer. Have no idea if it’s true but if it is, they will be a smash hit.


-----------------------------------------------------------
TCB all the time...
 
Posts: 6380 | Location: Cantonment/Perdido Key, Florida | Registered: September 28, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
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Meh




www.opspectraining.com

"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011



 
Posts: 33403 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Oriental Redneck
Picture of 12131
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by smithnsig:
quote:
Originally posted by 12131:
quote:
Originally posted by Biggy:
To me, a Glock 43x using the new Shield Arms 15rd flush fit mags is a hard all around combo to beat for year around concealed carry. Pocket guns have their place, depending on your pocket size and how fast you need to get it in action. I like my two G19's, G43X and 365,and they all have their place,but for me, the G43x with the Shield Arms flush fit 15rd mags, checks the most boxes of all of them.

So, how much longer is the 15-rd flush fit 43x mag going to be vaporware? Are they still waiting for investors?


Taking pre orders.

You know this pre-order thing has been around since the announcement, like eon ago.
quote:
Word from some is that Mec Gar is the manufacturer. Have no idea if it’s true but if it is, they will be a smash hit.

Like the P227 14-rounder? Never count the chickens... Wink
 
Posts: 18931 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: September 04, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Might look a little closer at it. Depending on the price and if they have the same deal with the extra magazines, case, & range bag.


"Never apologize, it's a sign of weakness"
 
Posts: 84 | Location: IL | Registered: March 21, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Big Stack
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You're right, but people have carried guns whose snail size compromises their shootability since people have been carrying concealed guns. Look at how many people carry small frame snubbie revolvers. They're harder to shoot than most guns. In addition they have a very low ammo capacity, and matginal ammo performance. Yet a lot of gun owners swear by them, mainly because they're so easy to carry.

quote:
Originally posted by Biggy:
To *me* the main selling point of concealability of all these subcompact length grip frame pistols, is also their biggest weakness. Using their flush fit mags, they are slower to get a good quick grip on and draw with, are slower to do mag changes with, and are generally harder to control and shoot accurately fast, than say more of a compact sized grip length like a 365XL or Glock 43X, where you can get a full grip on them when using their standard flush fit mags. IMHO, if you are using a good belt and holster combination with lets say the above two pistols,you loose very little in the way of concealability to these smaller subcompact pistols, and with none of their drawbacks. IMHO, every size of pistol is a compromise somewhere.
 
Posts: 19405 | Registered: November 05, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by smithnsig:
quote:
Originally posted by EasyFire:
Wonder if there will be a patent infringement issue?

Sigs patents are marketing. No way you can patent a magazine shape or contour.

Patent law is very complicated. If you have the will and the resources, you can patent almost anything.

Spyderco successfully patented the Round Hole(tm) in their folding knives. It's just a hole in the blade, right? Yeah, well why do you think all their competitors were using thumb-studs and blade extensions instead of a simple hole? They didn't want to pay licensing fees to Spyderco. The patent expired around 2001.

Harley-Davidson successfully patented the sound of their engine, because they claimed Japanese motorcycle companies were copying their sound. If H-D can successfully file patent infringement for the sound of their crappy, misfiring V-twin, then with enough motivation and funding, Sig could file a compelling infringement case against others they claim are copying their mag design.
 
Posts: 1702 | Location: Texas | Registered: June 17, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of ruger357
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by 12131:
quote:
Originally posted by Biggy:
To me, a Glock 43x using the new Shield Arms 15rd flush fit mags is a hard all around combo to beat for year around concealed carry. Pocket guns have their place, depending on your pocket size and how fast you need to get it in action. I like my two G19's, G43X and 365,and they all have their place,but for me, the G43x with the Shield Arms flush fit 15rd mags, checks the most boxes of all of them.

So, how much longer is the 15-rd flush fit 43x mag going to be vaporware? Are they still waiting for investors?


Supposed to start shipping in October.


-----------------------------------------

Roll Tide!

Glock Certified Armorer
NRA Certified Firearms Instructor
 
Posts: 6848 | Location: Hoover, AL | Registered: November 06, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by iron chef:
quote:
Originally posted by smithnsig:
quote:
Originally posted by EasyFire:
Wonder if there will be a patent infringement issue?

Sigs patents are marketing. No way you can patent a magazine shape or contour.

Patent law is very complicated. If you have the will and the resources, you can patent almost anything.

Spyderco successfully patented the Round Hole(tm) in their folding knives. It's just a hole in the blade, right? Yeah, well why do you think all their competitors were using thumb-studs and blade extensions instead of a simple hole? They didn't want to pay licensing fees to Spyderco. The patent expired around 2001.

Harley-Davidson successfully patented the sound of their engine, because they claimed Japanese motorcycle companies were copying their sound. If H-D can successfully file patent infringement for the sound of their crappy, misfiring V-twin, then with enough motivation and funding, Sig could file a compelling infringement case against others they claim are copying their mag design.


Don’t know about Spyderco, but no, HD didn’t patent or TM their sound. They tried for years but eventually gave up.
 
Posts: 1562 | Location: Central Florida | Registered: August 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Back in Black
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Cool gun, would even match my car! I went all in with the P365s, owning two of them, but I really like what they did here if it proves to be reliable.
 
Posts: 1101 | Location: North Carolina | Registered: January 23, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of fpuhan
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by RogueJSK:
So unless you're one of those stick figure guys who truly can't conceal the slight extra width of a G19-style compact, I don't see much point to something like a P365XL or G43X, when you could carry a G19-style compact on the belt and then have the option of carrying the smaller P365/Hellcat in the pocket when belt carry isn't an option.


I'm one of those "stick figure types," which is why - despite the issues I've had with it - have a P938 as my EDC. The P365 appeals to me, but I haven't had a chance to shoot one, yet. The SA Hellcat seems like a viable alternative to me. I have an XDs in .45 that I like, even though it's just a little too large for me to CC. I think the increased competition for small CC guns will just make the products more affordable and more reliable in the long run.




You can't truly call yourself "peaceful" unless you are capable of great violence. If you're not capable of great violence, you're not peaceful, you're harmless.

NRA Benefactor/Patriot Member
 
Posts: 2198 | Location: Peoples Republic of North Virginia | Registered: December 04, 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Considering all the trouble Sig had when they first released the P365 I would give the Hellcat some time. I bought my P365 in March and it has been flawless. As interesting as the Hellcat seems I do not need two guns so similar. My poor PM9 is now collecting dust in the safe.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Why are we encouraged not to judge all Muslims by the lunatics BUT are encouraged to judge all gun owners by the very few lunatics? Ironic?
 
Posts: 1567 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: May 26, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Leatherneck
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Edmond:
Wonder what retail price will be since MSRP is $569-599.


I just got an email from my LGS inviting me to preorder for $520. I’m interested in the gun but I’ll wait until it’s been out a while to see what issues may pop up. I think I’ll be able to find them cheaper too.




Georgia Carry MemberNRA Lifetime Member

“With no police to protect you, did you own a gun? Did your neighbor?” - The Division 2

“Everybody wants a Sig in the sheets but a Glock on the streets.” -bionic218 04-02-2014
 
Posts: 13350 | Location: Florida | Registered: May 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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