quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
I’ve seen this or heard this so many times. I used to say it, myself. And then one day, at the range with a buddy, I was handed a Gen 3 G20 with a full mag and told “have at.” I almost declined, having no interest in shooting a Gluck, but had never shot a 10mm before, and well... 10mm.

I remember my internal dialog was along the lines of “yuck... same crappy grip angle, feels like a brick... I could be shooting my West German P220 right now instead... these sights are awful....” And then something amazing happened. I lined up the ball in the bucket, and pressed the trigger. Tagged the X at 7 yards. “Ok, still feels like crap.” Halfway through the fifteen rounds, it was one ragged hole and I was miffed that it was so easy to shoot. When the slide locked back, I had a bitter grin on my face, as I shot my best group of the day with a bone-stock Glock that put my best work with my carry Sigs to absolute shame. The recoil impulse even seemed easier to deal with.

A few weeks later, I decided to do some science. I didn’t just want to accept the fact that I shot these plastic turd guns better than I shot my P220 or custom P229 with a butter-smooth trigger job. So I went to a rental range that had a dozen choices of black plastic in 9mm and shot them all. CZ’s, H&K’s, you name it. I spent the afternoon actually trying to objectively determine how I did with each one. Hands down, far and away, in their own category of shootability and accuracy were the Glocks. I shot the 17 the best, followed by the 26 (though I hated how it pinched me between the frame and the mag baseplate) and then the 19. I also brought my Sigs to bolster my suppositions, which were hopelessly dashed. A few weeks later, I started selling off Sigs and decided to split the difference in shootabilty and carry comfort and snagged a NIB Gen 2 19. The Sigs all turned into Glock 9mm’s in the following year.

So if you have handled Glocks and decided that they feel wrong in the hand and stopped there, you’re only getting part of the picture, and not the important part, at that. Go shoot one, or shoot several. Different generations give a different experience, so I’ve you’ve shot one you haven’t “shot them all.” I lucked into a Gen 1 17 that has a stock trigger that is unbelievable, and light years better than the one in the Gen 4 19 I carry. The proof is in the shooting, and until you’ve done that, you haven’t proved anything to yourself. I got dragged into the Glock camp not reluctantly, but kicking and screaming the whole way.

quote:

Originally posted by burnetma:

Unsafe guns have no place in my safe.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

People claim that the guns are "usable" out of the box, but it isn't rue at a high level.

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Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
My point which some seem to get (looking at you, Nipper and XLT) and many don't is simply that if you have judged Glocks only by how they feel in the hand without shooting one, you're not getting the whole picture.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Meh. Ok.

The day that I retire, will be the last day that I carry a Glock for anything. I will own my son's Gen5 34, my old duty pistol Gen4 G35, and my current duty pistol that'll I'll buy.

And that's it.

It's taken Glock 30 some odd years to finally get the gun close to usable at a high level. They stuck their fingers in their ears for years, and insisted that they were "Perfection". The quietly lost contracts because of their refusal to acknowledge problems, fix said problems, and evolve to the needs of their customers. Gaston knew what you needed far better than you. And it was only until that their competition made them evolve, due to RFP's that they held their nose and bowed down to the little guy. Frankly, they would not have gotten the FBI contract if one of the other companies hadn't botched the program worse than Glock did.

I honestly have lost track of how many rounds I have shot through 9mm and .40 caliber Glocks. It is somewhere north of 250k. People claim that the guns are "usable" out of the box, but it isn't rue at a high level. The Gen5s are just starting to scratch that surface.

It was pointed out that Glocks have a large presence in IDPA and USPSA. But, they are a frame and slide that says "Glock" on it mainly, and that is the only resemblance to an actual stock box Glock.

Not taking anything away from Glock. They do go bang each time you pull the trigger (but so do many other guns) and they do have an ok price point (but so do many other guns).

And many of the other guns are actually half way ergonomic.

Glock is a choice. That's about it.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
Have you found yourself becoming comfortable with that particular setup since you settled on it being more shootable?

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
A high level is like the definition of pornography. You know it when you see it. And Glocks struggle. If they did not, the guys on the top crust wouldn't dump the money into them that they do if they could get same results. Glocks have NEVER faired well at places like Bianchi. I think, if memory serves me correctly, there has only been a handful in the top 10 in production division since I have been around. Glock is really temperamental on how you hold on to it. I can't think of another pistol that you have to do this or that to make the pistol hit POA/POI just by how you hold on to it. The removal of the finger groves and the back straps have made huge advances, and minimized the effect somewhat. But, it is one more "train around" that you have to do at speed. The P320, for instance, is extremely forgiving to a bad grip, let alone not gripping it a counterintuitive way to make the gun hit POA/POI.

The question isn't "do other companies offer out of the box options", it is how little work can you get away with. To shoot at that level, you pretty much punch the pins on a Glock, spend $300 on frame work, and install all aftermarket stuff. Other guns may need a barrel, or a trigger job, but you don't have to ground up the build like you do with a Glock. Everything can be salt/peppered to taste, but everything needs a whole lot less salt/pepper than a Glock.

Everybody points to military units and the Glock, and it was Larry Vickers that talked about the money that the military spent trying to get the trigger usable on the pistols when they were adopted. The Tier One guys have lots of mods, the green guys usually don't use a pistol past about 5 yards.

They can be shot well, they just take a lot of time and money.