Here's one:

An Arizona resident named Harold Fish got in an altercation with a guy he said was mentally unstable out in the desert a ways. Fish carried a 10MM and the prosecution said he carried it strictly to kill people with as it was so huge.
He was convicted in 2006 but exonerated 3 years later.

https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna15199221

Fish always carries a pistol with him when he hikes, he says to protect him from wild animals. He says he pulled out a 10 mm gun he had with him that day—and fired a warning shot into the ground.

Fish: One dog went off to the left and stopped right over there by the tree there. The other one went off into the brush there.

The dogs were out of the way, but Fish says the man began charging down the hill at full speed.

Been investigating shootings for 23 years now. Haven't seen ammo choice or weapon type come up yet in a criminal proceeding unless the modification was something that was inherently illegal to begin with. I HAVE seen internet and social media posts come up.

Civil cases? Well. That's a whole nother kettle of fish. I'd avoid things that would draw undue attention like skull grips or ammo with exciting names.

quote:

Originally posted by copaup:
Been investigating shootings for 23 years now. Haven't seen ammo choice or weapon type come up yet in a criminal proceeding unless the modification was something that was inherently illegal to begin with. I HAVE seen internet and social media posts come up.

Civil cases? Well. That's a whole nother kettle of fish. I'd avoid things that would draw undue attention like skull grips or ammo with exciting names.

Nothing better than first hand facts, thank you!

Learn the laws where you live or intend to carry.
Make sure any deadly defensive action you use conforms to the letter of those laws.

If you follow the advice of Massad Ayoob or Andrew Branca as to the elements required for self-defense, you will be fine unless you are one of the .01% or less that ends up in one of those cases that people keep quoting for years. The reason they quote those cases is that there are so few or no others to scare people with.

If you live in a state like mine and are cleared of the criminal charges or never charged you can't be sued by the family or whoever successfully and those lawyers don't take cases they can't win.

quote:

Originally posted by 220-9er:
Learn the laws where you live or intend to carry.
Make sure any deadly defensive action you use conforms to the letter of those laws.

If you follow the advice of Massad Ayoob or Andrew Branca as to the elements required for self-defense, you will be fine unless you are one of the .01% or less that ends up in one of those cases that people keep quoting for years. The reason they quote those cases is that there are so few or no others to scare people with.

If you live in a state like mine and are cleared of the criminal charges or never charged you can't be sued by the family or whoever successfully and those lawyers don't take cases they can't win.

The same is true in Arizona, fortunately. You can't trust what can happen in Civil Suits.

We had a case a few years ago where a retired cop went road rage on a guy and his girlfriend, both mid to late 20s. Followed them and tried to run them off the road.

The young guy finally got off the freeway ostensibly to look for a cop car and get help, but got stopped at a red light.

The retired cop was right behind him, jumped out of his vehicle with a gun in his hand and ran up to the driver's side door.

The young guy had a gun too and center punched him. DRT.

The young guy wasn't charged.

The overwhelmingly vast majority of self defense shootings result in no charges filed. When they do, there are usually contributing circumstances. That isn't to say you can't get railroaded or something, but planning your loadout based on what might keep you out of trouble if you win the fight seems like a very distant consideration behind having the most reliable, effective gun and ammo you can muster.

quote:

Originally posted by sg:
Messiah Dabooby is a legend in his own mind. He was a cop just long enough to say he was one. Sure anybody can sue anybody for anything, and the DA can say stupid things if he/she is anti gun. But Ive yet to see a good shoot get a conviction because of brand of ammo, modification, etc.

Word.

quote:

Originally posted by 220-9er:
Learn the laws where you live or intend to carry.
Make sure any deadly defensive action you use conforms to the letter of those laws.

If you follow the advice of Massad Ayoob or Andrew Branca as to the elements required for self-defense, you will be fine unless you are one of the .01% or less that ends up in one of those cases that people keep quoting for years. The reason they quote those cases is that there are so few or no others to scare people with.

If you live in a state like mine and are cleared of the criminal charges or never charged you can't be sued by the family or whoever successfully and those lawyers don't take cases they can't win.

It’s as good to live in a free state as it was to move out an awful one.

Mr Ayoob is a recognized expert in self defense. It’s a brand he worked for and cultivated for many years. You may debate his qualifications, but the courts don’t.

He testified on behalf of a friend of mine who was being railroaded on a murder charge. (He was acquitted)

To follow up on this, he's made at least part of his career as an expert witness in defensive shooting situations. As such, he's been up close and personal with a much larger number of self defense shooting cases, over a much longer period of time (decades), than any of us, likely including the LEOs in the group, will ever deal with. That alone imparts a certain level of expertise, beyond the other qualifications he has.

quote:

Originally posted by Sgt 127:
Mr Ayoob is a recognized expert in self defense. It’s a brand he worked for and cultivated for many years. You may debate his qualifications, but the courts don’t.

He testified on behalf of a friend of mine who was being railroaded on a murder charge. (He was acquitted)

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
To follow up on this, he's made at least part of his career as an expert witness in defensive shooting situations. As such, he's been up close and personal with a much larger number of self defense shooting cases, over a much longer period of time (decades), than any of us, likely including the LEOs in the group, will ever deal with. That alone imparts a certain level of expertise, beyond the other qualifications he has.

quote:

Originally posted by Sgt 127:
Mr Ayoob is a recognized expert in self defense. It’s a brand he worked for and cultivated for many years. You may debate his qualifications, but the courts don’t.

He testified on behalf of a friend of mine who was being railroaded on a murder charge. (He was acquitted)

Agreed. One of the leaders in expert testimony.

quote:

Originally posted by sg:
Messiah Dabooby is a legend in his own mind.

Massad Ayoob is a registered member of this forum and is someone I've spoken with on more than one occasion. You'll kindly keep your remarks to yourself.

Massad Ayoob has been writing articles and contributing to the advancement of gun handling techniques since the 1970s. I don't think he needs to prove that he's on our side or that his remarks are in our best interest as firearm owners and handlers.

All that being said, behave yourself.

quote:

Haven't seen ammo choice or weapon type come up yet in a criminal proceeding

Only in NJ where the use of HP ammo in CERTAIN events can be a criminal charge. Unlike the misinformation seen on the internet often that does not include in your own home or business.

quote:

Prosecutors will grasp at ANYTHING they can to make you the bad guy. I don't see anything stopping them.

True to a certain extent. The Defense will ofject as being immaterial.

As already stated here I would follow the advice of firearms self-defense experts such as Massad Ayoob, and many others who state never alter anything on concealed carry gun except the sites, grip, and maybe the finish. No zombies or punisher skulls.

I have also been given this same advice by firearms lawyers who deal with these cases. The same ammo as the police use will be very effective and not give prosecutors or plaintiffs attorneys in and civil cases against you anymore arguments.

There are some steps to take in self-defense shootings that look better and will make it harder for a prosecutor to file charges or when a case against you such as shooting as close range and shooting as few rounds as possible. However, in self-defense shooting when someone's trying to take your life if you shoot them 3 or 4 times and they do not stop then one would suggest to continue shooting. Shooting at close range looks better in your favor but it also may get you killed.


There is much Internet advice and forum discussions which may be good or may not. I would listen to lawyers who actually defend people in self-defense shootings. In addition, you have to look at your own local jurisdiction and what is happening there within the last year or 2. Multiple major metropolitan areas now have George Soros backed radical social justice prosecutors who believe the criminals are victims and the police are the criminals. I am not making an overstatement. I am not exaggerating. In a self-defense shooting you will be seen as the aggressor.

Get a lot of information from different sources to help you form your own opinion. You are raising a very valid point that we should all think about is much as possible.

quote:

Originally posted by sg:
Messiah Dabooby is a legend in his own mind. He was a cop just long enough to say he was one. Sure anybody can sue anybody for anything, and the DA can say stupid things if he/she is anti gun. But Ive yet to see a good shoot get a conviction because of brand of ammo, modification, etc.

Mr. Ayoob has testified as an expert witness in court for many years.

Do you have similar expertise? You are entitled to your personal opinion -- but to denigrate the validity of his expertise makes you look JV.

-----------------------------------

One more never do it engrave messages on the gun like "Kill them all and let G*d sort them out." Lawyers have also looked into body tattoos for statements that allegedly are indicative of a shooter's state of mind. Character evidence is uniformly disfavored in court. A quality attorney will hold a hearing outside the presence of the jury to eliminate that trouble. People tend to dislike lawyers until serious trouble knocks on the door.

The modified gun and non factory ammo has come up as a real problem but it appears that it only happens on the internet. In real life as long as you don't kill anyone unless you feel like your life is in danger the kind of ammo or gun is way overplayed.

This is for others who also enjoy learning from people who are respected for what they do in the 2A community. Yesterday, Andrew Branca was on the AAR, (Armed American Radio) podcast by Mark Walters. Andrew Branca was, as always, wonderfully informed and right on top of the most pressing matters facing personal self defense in the US today.

It depends on the state. In my state, self defense is an absolute defense against criminal charges, and what constitutes self defense is laid out clearly in statute. In other states it’s not so clear.

For example, in my state, CWL is shall issue and you can carry openly or concealed without a CWL anywhere that is part of your habitation...home/property, car, or place of business. Castle doctrine applies to all of those.