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| Member |
I'm no lawyer but I'm wondering what some general legalities are regarding lethal self defense use of force with a handgun. Yes, I know it varies from state to state but anti 2A lawyers and judges work in all 50 US states. I assume just about any lawyer can use whatever tactic a judge allows regarding bringing charges against the victim for their use of deadly force. Assuming someone successfully defended themselves with a derringer, a 5 round revolver, a 6 or 7 round revolver or a semi automatic handgun nearing 20 rounds in a magazine. When does a lawyer accuse you of carrying an offensive weapon instead of a defensive weapon? Even the choice of some self defensive ammo seems to open the door for some lawyers. I hear lawyers and guests on talk shows like Gun Talk with Tom Gresham or AAR with Mark Walters and they bring up some crazy lawsuits brought against private citizens and police after they defend themselves. The need for a lawyer isn't an option for a victim, it's mandatory. I've seen people carrying an AR pistol with several extra 30 round magazines and never thought that person has defense on their minds in the real world. I have thanked them for exercising their 2A rights as well as for being the voluntary dedicated victim for anyone with bad intentions. So, does someone who puts down an assailant with one or two rounds of ball ammo from their derringer have it easier in court than if they used a 15 rounds Speer Gold Dot from a G17? Or are the particulars with lawyers and what judges may allow to varied for general guidelines? | ||
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Spread the Disease |
Prosecutors will grasp at ANYTHING they can to make you the bad guy. I don't see anything stopping them. It would be interesting to see how many actual cases can be brought up where what you mentioned has happened. ________________________________________ -- Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past me I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. -- | |||
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| Gone but Together Again. Dad & Uncle  |
One would think "common sense" would prevail, and I'm not a lawyer, but based upon my knowledge personally I would: 1) Carry an unaltered/original firearm (different sights, grips, etc. notwithstanding but definitely NOT a lightened trigger/etc.) 2) Use only commercially manufactured ammo, NO "hot" handloads. In other words, if you had a highly modified firearm with an extremely light trigger, used the hottest handloads possible, versus someone who used a "base" firearm with Speer GD's, I bet the jury would view things differently. Just my two-cents. | |||
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E tan e epi tas |
I wouldn’t have my punisher grips on my smile wait for flash bushing’d worked over trigger 10mm 1911 loaded up with R.I.P ammo as my carry or HD piece but you do you.  . Different jurisdictions different biases different laws etc. all come into play. I, and this is just me, think one should make a reasonable and prudent attempt to E&E and if that is not an available option use a “normal” gun with a “normal” (read commonly used LEO) load. I think ones primary desire should be to remove the threat and if that means removing you and your FROM the threat all the better. This is not only for existential reasons, but for prudent legal reasons as BEST CASE in a GOOD SHOOT is you are still likely to have to jump through many legal hurdles and at the end of the day still have to look yourself in the mirror everyday afterward. "Guns are tools. The only weapon ever created was man." | |||
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| Slayer of Agapanthus |
Massad Ayoob has recommended using the same ammo as the local police, if possible. The ammo is often JHP and available to non-LEOs unless you live in one of those awful states. Please read his books. Maybe he will post here. Even if the PD only use ball, JHP would be better for SD if legal. "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye". The Little Prince, Antoine de Saint-Exupery, pilot and author, lost on mission, July 1944, Med Theatre. | |||
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| Member |
Messiah Dabooby is a legend in his own mind. He was a cop just long enough to say he was one. Sure anybody can sue anybody for anything, and the DA can say stupid things if he/she is anti gun. But Ive yet to see a good shoot get a conviction because of brand of ammo, modification, etc. | |||
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| E tan e epi tas |
I guess you can argue that but there is no dispute that he is/has been called to act as expert testimony so without knowing your credentials he at the very least does have practical experience. "Guns are tools. The only weapon ever created was man." | |||
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| Member |
You've got two legal worries here - criminal liability and civil liability. Both are going to depend on the jurisdiction, from a legal standpoint (different laws/standards) and as a practical matter (both prosecutors and potential jurors are going to have less sympathy for the perpetrator in conservative rural areas than urban liberal areas). Any inquiry will be very fact specific and focus on whether your use of lethal force was justified under the circumstances, and at what point the threat had been neutralized so that continuing to shoot the assailant was no longer reasonable/justified. Having a modified handgun and using hot handloads might be used against you to the extent that the lawyer on the other side might try to characterize you as someone "spoiling" for a fight who already made the decision you would kill anyone breaking into your home before the "perp" crossed your threshold. On the other hand, if I were your lawyer and you had a 17 round mag in the gun and two spares in you pocket and you only fired 2 rounds I would use that as evidence that you acted reasonably, since you could have put a lot more holes in the guy. | |||
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The Great Equalizer |
Mark, When you hear those crazy stories, you need to take into consideration what jurisdiction they occurred in The kind of suit you are describing probably occurs in EVERY shooting case in NJ, NY, Los Angles, Chicago and other liberal pools of influence. (part of the reason I moved from Chicago to Florida) Here in Florida, that is almost never heard of. Most Americans that use a firearm in Self Defense in our jurisdictions go home to sleep in their own bed and never need an attorney I do teach Firearms Safety and the topic of which ammunition is BEST comes up frequently. I always recommend that you learn what your local Law Enforcement department chose and carry the same brand and style of ammunition even if it is in a different caliber. After all, they already studied what was the best manstopper that presented the least amount of danger to their Citizens (or at least they should have). If it is good enough for LEOs to protect your Life and Property, then it is good enough for you to protect the same with The truth is that any of the Premium Self Defense offerings from the 5 or 6 major manufacturers will work equally well in stopping a threat to your life. The only thing that you really have to worry about is if it is reliable in your firearm ------------------------------------------------------------------ NRA Benefactor . . . Certified Instructor . . . Certified RSO SWCA 356TSW.com 45talk.com RacingPlanetUSA.Com | |||
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Member |
Regarding ammo, I often hear/read the advice to carry the same ammo that most LE do, b/c then you can't be accused of using something more powerful than what the police use. I hear Speer Gold Dot, Federal HST, and Hornady Critical Duty/Defense are most popular among LE, but Winchester PDX, Remington Ranger, and Sig V-Crown are also in the mix. A case that is often referred to when attornies used a shooter's choice of firearm against him was the case of Harold Fish. Fish defended himself against two unleashed, aggressive dogs and their owner w/ his Kimber 1911 chambered in 10mm. Those of us in the gun world know, 10mm was designed not just to kill a man but also to destroy his soul. The prosecution successfully convicted Fish, although the ruling was later overturned. That doesn't change the fact that Fish spent over three years in prison, died three years after he was released from prison, and accrued a mountain of debt from legal fees (~$700K according to one source). I suspect the stress from the trial and prison accelerated his demise. Also, this case happened in AZ, which is considered one of the most 2A, gun-friendly states. Harold Fish Exoneration Will you be the next Harold Fish? State v Fish | |||
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Member |
This topic has been debated for a very long time. And the conclusion always seems to be ... precident will be determined if and when we have an actual case involving a modified gun. Until then, we're only talking about the hypothetical. By the way, I won't carry any gun with an altered (lightened) trigger. The only modification I'm willing to perform on a carry gun is to add good night sights. Even my carry ammo is based on what the closest big City Police Department recommends for their officers. ************************************************ "Tonight, we are a country awakened to danger and called to defend freedom. Our grief has turned to anger and anger to resolution. Whether we bring our enemies to justice or bring justice to our enemies, justice will be done". {George W. Bush, Post 9/11} | |||
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| Member |
WOW I guess I didn't have much of an impression of Massad until I actually met him at matches. I've had a couple short discussions and participated in one or two of the short clinics he did after a major IDPA match (when he was part of the Panteao Productions shooting team). He's actually a pretty good guy. If you ask, he explains why he formed his conclusion/recommendation. Speak softly and carry a | |||
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| Member |
Great information, thank you. Yes, laws and the reality of how they're applied vary wildly from one jurisdiction to another. I do continue to listen to a few recognized experts in gun training and 2A. I also whole heartedly agree that having to use your handgun means that 90% of your safety protocols have already failed. Situational awareness, prepare to avoid by being aware, preparation, avoidance, awareness etc. There's no penalty for unused rounds in a magazine. Though as soon as someone suggests a 'home defense' weapon because it's good for 'several hundred yards' I greatly discount that persons recommendation. Unless your home is several hundred yards long, you're calculating an offensive position, not a defensive position. | |||
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| Member |
If you're really interested in this topic, check out Andrew Branca's state specific classes. Not sure what's happened with COVID but he use to teach in person classes around the country. My daughter and I attended one of his classes. Link Speak softly and carry a | |||
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| Member |
Massad F Ayoob is known and respected around the world as an expert. sg on an internet forum, no, not so much. I suspect if you spoke with and actually listened Mr. Ayoob and how/why he says what he does, you may have a very different post. | |||
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| Member |
I'm a fan of Andrew Branca's books and listen to him as often as possible. I'll check out when he will be in my area though. Thank you! | |||
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| Member |
Y'all remember that one time some yahoo started talking smack about Mr. Ayoob (about this similar topic) and Para brought him into that thread? Truly one of the most epic moments in this forum. Good times. _____________________________ Off finding Galt's Gulch | |||
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| Member |
Don't give too much credence to people called as "experts" in trials. If it helps with perspective, I was, more than once, sworn in as an "expert witness" in the area of personal computers. I cannot post a picture on this forum. There is a certain well-known private coroner that was terminated from the NYC coroner's office. I'm not saying Ayoob is not an expert, but he always goes to absolute worst case scenarios. Most prosecutors are not anti-gun fanatics, in most areas. Those who are, well, it's not going to make a whole lot of difference. Get the insurance or have an attorney on retainer, then carry what works best for you. A legally defensible gun with socially acceptable ammo that fails is worse than useless. | |||
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| Big Stack |
Some thoughts and clarifications: Most self defense cases are brought under in state courts under state law. So both the judges and lawyers involved in any trials are appointed/licensed in the state in question. The second amendment is overarching, but pretty rarely comes into play. Where issue specifically relating to gun hardware come into play is in an attempt to determine the motive of someone claiming self defense in a shooting (ie was he really defending himself, or did he go looking for trouble and found it.) Generally the totality of the case will be used to determine that. Also, you seem to be not differentiating between criminal and civil law. There are large difference between a case where the DA is charging someone criminally looking to lock them up, vs a private lawyer suing for damages.
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Member |
The words you chose to say on the internet are more likely to get you into trouble than the gun or ammunition you chose. | |||
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