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Help - need shooting tips; 2 19's w/ different results Login/Join 
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Picture of konata88
posted
I have 2 gen 3 19's. Differences include:

1) Trij HD XR, ?? connector (not sure what was in there but not stock; no label but it was polished). Stacked very badly at end of pull. I just replaced w/ a Ghost 3.5 connector and it's much smoother now. Stock grip.

2) precision FO (Dawson or Warren, can't remember). Ghost connector (3.5 or Edge, not sure which). Grip adapter w/ beavertail.

Target at 5 yards. Top row is w/ 19 #2; Bottom row is w/ 19 #1.

I'm not a good shooter, but the two groupings are statistically different to me. Same time, same ammo. Also, when I moved the target to 25 yards, I had a group that sits inside 4x4" with #2 while with #1 at 12 yards (yes half the distance of #2), the group would fit into a 4wx7h" rectangle (more vertical dispersion than horizontal).

Help me understand - why am I getting two different types of groupings between the 2 19's.






"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - B.Franklin
"Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it." L.Tolstoy
 
Posts: 8729 | Location: In the gilded cage | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Casuistic Thinker and Daoist
Picture of 9mmepiphany
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Looks like a sight alignment issue...maybe combined with grip pressure variation because of the beavertail

With #1 are you aligning the dots or the top of the blades?

Are you covering the circle/square with the front dot?




No, Daoism isn't a religion



 
Posts: 13546 | Location: northern california | Registered: February 07, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of konata88
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I could probably use a tune up from the teacher Smile

Grip does feel more solid w/ the beavertail but I was pretty conscious of grip pressure - trying to be accurate (grip, sight picture, trigger pull smooth and straight back). But still could have been doing something wrong like you suggest.

I was aligning top of blade with POA (same sight picture in both cases).

I'm mostly asking about level of group dispersion rather than relative POA vs POI. So, you're speculating that the sight picture may be contributing to the dispersion? But if I have the same sight picture for both, wouldn't dispersion be about the same? Or is the FO inherently more precise, regardless of sight picture?

I'm wondering if the trigger stacking at the end of the pull is an influence. I cleaned everything and just changed the connector with a smoother, consistent pull. See what that does next week?

You've always said that the rounds should be touching for this exercise - pretty close for #2 but #1 is way off......




"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - B.Franklin
"Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it." L.Tolstoy
 
Posts: 8729 | Location: In the gilded cage | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of AZnine
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Trigger feel makes a lot of difference!!
 
Posts: 152 | Location: Mesa, AZ | Registered: June 03, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I would repeat with a different type of ammunition. You're right that the differences in the groups appear statistically significant. I've definitely run into guns that did not like a particular load. Also curious if there's any chance of crown damage to the second gun.
 
Posts: 3732 | Location: Iowa | Registered: February 24, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I would look to see if the Beavertail grip caused your trigger finger to be placed differently on the trigger face.


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Posts: 2085 | Location: North Carolina, USA | Registered: January 21, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Casuistic Thinker and Daoist
Picture of 9mmepiphany
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quote:
I could probably use a tune up from the teacher

We can make that happen...we should at least see if I get similar results




No, Daoism isn't a religion



 
Posts: 13546 | Location: northern california | Registered: February 07, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by konata88:

Help me understand - why am I getting two different types of groupings between the 2 19's.


"Every gun is a law unto itself." The one may just be more accurate than the other.


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Posts: 18137 | Location: 18th & Fairfax  | Registered: May 17, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
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You are a right handed shooter.

The guns are most likely different generations.

You have average sized hands (maybe even smallish)

Bottom row of targets is a preignition push from a right handed shooter.

How am I doing?




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"It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it works out for them"



 
Posts: 34673 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of konata88
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I’ll try it with the new connector tomorrow. If that doesn’t work, then not sure what to do. I have another 19 with HD XR and no grip adapter; only the ghost connector and it groups are similar to #2. So, the uncommon element seems to be the connector. Ask have a 26 with basically same set up but with ghost connector and groups similar to #2. #1 is odd for me for some reason. Hope it’s the connector.




"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - B.Franklin
"Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it." L.Tolstoy
 
Posts: 8729 | Location: In the gilded cage | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of konata88
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Jones:

Right hand shooter. Left eye dominant.

Both are gen 3

I have average to small hands.

Could be pushing but why just with #1 and not #2? Because of trigger feel differences?




"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - B.Franklin
"Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it." L.Tolstoy
 
Posts: 8729 | Location: In the gilded cage | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
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quote:
Originally posted by konata88:
Jones:

Right hand shooter. Left eye dominant.

Both are gen 3

I have average to small hands.

Could be pushing but why just with #1 and not #2? Because of trigger feel differences?


Distance amplifies follow through issues. You have some trigger control issues too, but they don’t manifest themselves at 5. At distance we all “try” harder. We put stress upon ourselves. We “try” to perform. This leads to pushing the gun downward at point of ignition. The left of center groups at 5 are mainly grip issues.

You’ll see it if you hit some ball and dummy drills hard. I think if you reverse the guns at the distances, you’d see the same results.

Just a guess, without actually seeing you shoot.




www.opspectraining.com

"It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it works out for them"



 
Posts: 34673 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of konata88
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I’m not a good shooter. I have issues with sight picture, trigger control, grip, anticipation and follow through. And probably more.

Still, this puzzles me. What’s ball and dummy drill?




"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - B.Franklin
"Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it." L.Tolstoy
 
Posts: 8729 | Location: In the gilded cage | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yep, sure looks different.
Trigger? Sights? Grip?
Might be interesting to swap barrel and slide assemblies onto the other frames.
 
Posts: 487 | Location: Baltimore, MD | Registered: March 29, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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quote:
Originally posted by konata88:
What’s ball and dummy drill?


“Ball” refers to live rounds; “dummy” to snap caps or other inert cartridges that won’t fire.

In the drill one or more dummies are mixed at random in the firearm’s magazine (or revolver cylinder) so that the shooter doesn’t know when they will be chambered. Seeing what the shooter does when trying to fire the dummy is a good diagnostic tool. It also often helps the shooter understand that he’s doing things like anticipating the recoil and pushing the gun down and forward (the “preignition push” mentioned by jljones) at the moment of firing.

It’s easiest if someone else can load the dummy into the magazine, but it’s possible to do it oneself; it’s just a little more involved.




“The most common reaction to a life-or-death situation is to do nothing.”
— Amanda Ripley, The Unthinkable: who survives when disaster strikes and why (New York: Three Rivers Press, 2008)
 
Posts: 42930 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Beanhead
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I’d get a pistol rest and see if it is the gun or you. Eliminate all variables to solve your problem.

Even if you simply just rest it on a pistol rug and shoot it deliberately, it should tell you what you need to know.

If it is the gun, then you can work on that. If they both shoot the same, then it is time to evaluate your shooting grip, trigger pull, sight alignment...


You can only control what you can control. Nothing more. Nothing less.
 
Posts: 1122 | Location: Wisconsin  | Registered: May 27, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I agree with ScotP7 - swap the slide to the other frame and see what happens


Here there is no failure, only varied degrees of success!
 
Posts: 851 | Location: Carrollton, TX | Registered: August 01, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of konata88
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Thanks SF. Dang, I need to get on the ball. I'm such a dummy. I know that drill but it's been so long since I've done it.

Shooting from the line: I don't think they allow using rests (handgun line; rifle line okay). The targets are a little elevate so shooting from a rest my result in rounds over the berm. There is another area (comp area) but you need 2+ people; usually I'm flying solo. But even still, I can understand a 19 in isolation but I'm using 2 at the same time and only one exhibits the poor behavior. I'm hoping it's not me.

I've been using the setup of #1: Ghost, HD, no grip adapter on both the 19 and 26 and it's been fine. This 19 is relatively new but I don't remember having this issue when I tested for function upon initial receipt. But perhaps I was testing well enough. Or I'm doing something specific w/ this 19; I should mention I shot a 26 as well and had a 1-2" group and no flyers at 5 yards (30 rounds) - for me a respectable group (this is the 26 w/ the battery issue; still awaiting a new RSA).

This is from a few years ago; not sure if this is with one of the 19's in question here. But at least a 19 (and a 26)



I'm know I'm not a good shooter but the dispersion I'm experiencing with #1 is a little unusual for me....




"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - B.Franklin
"Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it." L.Tolstoy
 
Posts: 8729 | Location: In the gilded cage | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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With the 19 (#2) and the 26 shooting very similarly, I'm going to say you were adding your mental/physical compensation for, "stacked very badly at the end," on #1.

My rule with Glocks, if someone owns multiples- use the same connector, same trigger and same sights.
 
Posts: 46 | Registered: August 22, 2019Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of konata88
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I tried out the 19 #1 with a new Ghost connector and things have improved. Grouping still not as good as 19 #2 and they 26 (at least for close distances; my 26 groups tend to spread out faster with distance > 15 yards).

I think the 19 #1 is close enough now to certify with for now but I'll still look to improve it; perhaps the grip adapter will help (ordered). Planning to put the beavertail on all glocks now.




"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - B.Franklin
"Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it." L.Tolstoy
 
Posts: 8729 | Location: In the gilded cage | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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