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Why turn this interesting thread into crap? Jones?
 
Posts: 882 | Location: Northern Nevada | Registered: December 22, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
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quote:
Originally posted by ACP1:
Why turn this interesting thread into crap? Jones?
Why was it Jones fault for bringing factual information on WML usage to a thread?
 
Posts: 35997 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Gee, I thought the thread was about rails and tails not WML.
 
Posts: 882 | Location: Northern Nevada | Registered: December 22, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
That is my spot.
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quote:
Originally posted by ACP1:
Gee, I thought the thread was about rails and tails not WML.


I'm not educated enough to have anything other than opinion on the matter but what else do most people put on a rail? I always thought wml... (either light or laser. Lol)

Unless you think they look cool or need a bayonet.

As to the question, I have arms with and without each- just like other tools of mine have various features....


****
"And those who govern ought not to be lovers of the task? For, if they are, there will be rival lovers, and they will fight."
 
Posts: 1779 | Location: Rural Tallahassee, FL | Registered: October 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Oriental Redneck
Picture of 12131
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quote:
Originally posted by BigNC:
quote:
Originally posted by ACP1:
Gee, I thought the thread was about rails and tails not WML.


I'm not educated enough to have anything other than opinion on the matter but what else do most people put on a rail? I always thought wml... (either light or laser. Lol)

Unless you think they look cool or need a bayonet.

As to the question, I have arms with and without each- just like other tools of mine have various features....

Yes, it does. Big Grin
Not mine.



Q


 
Posts: 13564 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: September 04, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
That is my spot.
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Lol. I was specifically thinking of that one and the glock one. Wink


****
"And those who govern ought not to be lovers of the task? For, if they are, there will be rival lovers, and they will fight."
 
Posts: 1779 | Location: Rural Tallahassee, FL | Registered: October 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of 4MUL8R
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I want no rail but with tail. The lack of a tail makes the safety snick-off feel odd to me, as the web of my shooting hand goes over the tang.


NRA Life Member
 
Posts: 2471 | Location: Commonwealth of Virginia | Registered: January 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of rappa
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I'm an old Classic P fan, no rails, no tails, clean, smooth lines.
 
Posts: 231 | Location: Largo,FL USA | Registered: December 23, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
7.62mm Crusader
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One nice aspect of a frame without the big wide rail is how much flatter a Sig pistol carries. I've had Sigs and, some other brands with and without the tac rail. After years of Customers expressing their want for some pistols without a tac rail, those crafty New Englanders just aint listening. Theyz too busy melting plastic.
 
Posts: 13706 | Registered: December 23, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of HayesGreener
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quote:
Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
quote:
Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:
Did the standard SIG grip tang of the SIG Classic P series not allow you the same speed index draw?


Not Hays but I'll chime in.

It depends. SIG has three beaver tail contours on the P-Series guns. Some are extremely helpful over the no tail guns, others are a hinderance. The contour of the beaver tail on the Legion does allow me to get the gun higher, and is a pretty rock solid reference point. I get a more consistent grip at speed with this set up than I do a gun without it. But, when I shoot my tail-less guns, I don't freak out and lose my mind. It is just different.

The other tails aren't helpful at all in my opinion. Such as the offerings on the Enhanced Elites, and the Scorpion series guns. I'd just as soon see those guns come with no tail, or a Legion contoured tail as the monstrosity they come with now.


I'd still be interested to hear from Hayes on this, but I really do appreciate you chiming in on this issue!

I've held examples of all three of the "tail" variants, although I guess I wouldn't describe the Classic P Series as "tailess" so much as a gun with just a basic old school tang...but let's just chalk that up to semantics.

But I've only drawn and fired SIG Classic P series guns and never found that I couldn't locate, grasp, or draw using just the tang for an index point. So, maybe I'm missing something glaringly obvious and before I get to deep into this discussion I need to understand the technique you and others use to index on guns with tails.

Do you sweep your strong hand forward during the draw stroke so that the web of your hand contacts the tail and then slide it to the upper most portion? Or, during the draw stroke does the web of your strong hand immediately go to the upper most portion of the grip under the tail?

I really do like the way the Legion sits in my hand, but my impression was that my hand was able to grasp the gun just a fraction higher than the Classic P series because of the trigger guard undercut, and not because of the slightly extended tang "tail".

I guess I'm having difficulty visualizing the technique that allows one to have their hand grasp the gun higher with a tail than without one.


Sorry to have been away from this discussion for a few days-busy with classes. I like an attractive gun with good lines, but the aesthetics to me are irrelevant in a working gun.

I have nothing against non-tail guns. I carried a M-11 for duty for many years and was perfectly happy with it and still like that gun. Before that I carried S&W Gen 3 guns. I never had a problem getting a good initial grip on the P228 or the S&W's.

However, when I bought my first beavertail P220 Carry Elite about 10 years ago I immediately noticed that I was getting a more consistent grip on the pistol at speed. Maybe because I have large hands and the ergonomics just fit me better. My scores went up.

My draw stroke is to come straight down on the grip as necessary with a Level III retention holster. I have come to favor the beavertail configuration on my Sigs, and even on my Glock 17. My P220 with the beavertail and my P226 SAO are my "go to" guns when I shoot for qualification or for score. I also have a P220-10 stainless Elite and like the feel of the beavertail on that gun as well.

One size does not fit all, what works for one may not work for everyone.


CMSGT USAF (Retired)
Chief of Police (Retired)
Florida Class K Licensed Instructor
NRA Certified Firearms Instructor/RSO
NRA Certified LE Handgun/Shotgun/Rifle Instructor
SIG and Glock Armorer
 
Posts: 1884 | Location: Florida Panhandle | Registered: September 27, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Lead slingin'
Parrot Head
Picture of Modern Day Savage
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quote:
Originally posted by HayesGreener:
Sorry to have been away from this discussion for a few days-busy with classes. I like an attractive gun with good lines, but the aesthetics to me are irrelevant in a working gun.

I have nothing against non-tail guns. I carried a M-11 for duty for many years and was perfectly happy with it and still like that gun. Before that I carried S&W Gen 3 guns. I never had a problem getting a good initial grip on the P228 or the S&W's.

However, when I bought my first beavertail P220 Carry Elite about 10 years ago I immediately noticed that I was getting a more consistent grip on the pistol at speed. Maybe because I have large hands and the ergonomics just fit me better. My scores went up.

My draw stroke is to come straight down on the grip as necessary with a Level III retention holster. I have come to favor the beavertail configuration on my Sigs, and even on my Glock 17. My P220 with the beavertail and my P226 SAO are my "go to" guns when I shoot for qualification or for score. I also have a P220-10 stainless Elite and like the feel of the beavertail on that gun as well.

One size does not fit all, what works for one may not work for everyone.


Hayes, thanks for taking the time to weigh in!

"Liking the feel of" of the beaver tail or "getting a more consistent grip" on them, while I haven't noticed it myself, I can accept as those are subjective qualities and so if an individual shooter likes the way the gun feels I can readily accept that even if I don't understand it.

Maybe there is some other dynamic in play here that I'm just not grasping, but when I read about those who find that they can grasp a gun with a beaver tail higher that is what confounds me. It seems, to me at least, that where the top side of your middle finger rests behind and under the trigger guard, as well as the underside radius of the tang beaver tail where the web of your strong hand should firmly rest, determine just how high up on the grip a shooter's strong hand sits.

Obviously with the Legion series the trigger guard grip frame undercut does allow the top side of the middle finger of the strong hand to sit just a smidge higher and so that part I get. (and LIKE!) But, the underside radius of the tang tail, on both the Classic P series as well as the Legion series and the full sized Elite beaver tails, appear to have about the same underside radius and placement of the web of the hand.

Now, if someone could convince me that this underside radius somehow is slightly higher on the Legion or Elite series, then I could understand how a shooter's hand might sit higher on the gun.

I fully accept that some shooters like you and jones and others like the way the tails feel. If you can demonstrate that you are seeing performance improvement that is all that really matters.. I'm just trying to get my head around the concept that they actually allow a higher grasp. I'm hoping that jones' will be demonstrate this concept to me in a video!

This pic is from a SIG Days event that I attended in the Spring. There is a SIG MK 25 Classic P series with the tang circled in green on the top left side, and the semi tang tail on both a SIG P227 and a SIG P226 or P229 Legion circled in red slightly farther right in the pic, just for reference.

 
Posts: 3593 | Registered: August 21, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Gone to the Dogs
Picture of tomgun
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I guess I like no rail no tail on my sigs.
I have other makers guns with rails and tails though.
I just picked this up yesterday, and it's a perfect example of what I like. The frame rails on this gun look perfect, but it does have some cosmetic wear.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: tomgun,
 
Posts: 1463 | Location: Lake Tapps, WA. | Registered: June 08, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Since I am non-police, the only way I'll normally be carrying my pistol is concealed inside the waistband (as opposed to hanging on a duty belt). As such, there is never going to be a time that there is a flashlight or anything else mounted on the gun while also concealed inside my waistband, so a rail is useless for me for normal carry, and ugly to boot. In addition, since concealment is needed, the less things sticking out at odd angles from the rear of the pistol to jab me in the side, the better, hence no want of a beaver or other "tail".
 
Posts: 3844 | Location: Boise, ID USA | Registered: February 14, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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