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The Great Equalizer
Picture of colt_saa
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
You didn't hit a nerve with me. I call them as I see them. Doubling down just doesn't help you out at blaming an inanimate object.

Maybe you should get some training before you attempt to speak with authority outside of your lane. Just a sincere suggestion.
I have no idea what you are seeing, I just know you are still calling it wrong.

I have not blamed an inanimate object, the statement Using a gun as your flashlight FORCES you to point the gun at things and people that you have No intention of destroying clearly blames the person using the gun

I do not understand why you keep repeating that I should get training before speaking. What do you have against the training I have already had over the decades? Insulting me does not bolster your point of view. Yes, I know it is an old debate technique to shift focus

In the spirit of this thread, I posted the reason that I believe that rails have no useful place on personal firearms and you decided to go off on me and my point of view. I call that hitting a nerve. Perhaps I need more training in that area as well Smile


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Posts: 4404 | Location: Fort Lauderdale, Florida | Registered: November 04, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by colt_saa:


For the private person, putting a flashlight on your gun violates one of the basic rules of Firearms Safety. . . "Never point your firearm at something you are not willing to destroy"

Using a firearm as a flashlight FORCES you to constantly point your firearm at things and people that you are NOT willing to destroy.


There is a big difference between using a wml and using your firearm as a flashlight.
 
Posts: 138 | Location: Michigan | Registered: April 21, 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
posted Hide Post
How many low light handgun training classes have you taken in the last 5 years colt_SAA?




I'm Rick James.
 
Posts: 35648 | Location: Around | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Great Equalizer
Picture of colt_saa
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by mbacker_99:
quote:
Originally posted by colt_saa:


For the private person, putting a flashlight on your gun violates one of the basic rules of Firearms Safety. . . "Never point your firearm at something you are not willing to destroy"

Using a firearm as a flashlight FORCES you to constantly point your firearm at things and people that you are NOT willing to destroy.


There is a big difference between using a wml and using your firearm as a flashlight.
Exactly


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Posts: 4404 | Location: Fort Lauderdale, Florida | Registered: November 04, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Lead slingin'
Parrot Head
Picture of Modern Day Savage
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
quote:
Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:
Did the standard SIG grip tang of the SIG Classic P series not allow you the same speed index draw?


Not Hays but I'll chime in.

It depends. SIG has three beaver tail contours on the P-Series guns. Some are extremely helpful over the no tail guns, others are a hinderance. The contour of the beaver tail on the Legion does allow me to get the gun higher, and is a pretty rock solid reference point. I get a more consistent grip at speed with this set up than I do a gun without it. But, when I shoot my tail-less guns, I don't freak out and lose my mind. It is just different.

The other tails aren't helpful at all in my opinion. Such as the offerings on the Enhanced Elites, and the Scorpion series guns. I'd just as soon see those guns come with no tail, or a Legion contoured tail as the monstrosity they come with now.


I'd still be interested to hear from Hayes on this, but I really do appreciate you chiming in on this issue!

I've held examples of all three of the "tail" variants, although I guess I wouldn't describe the Classic P Series as "tailess" so much as a gun with just a basic old school tang...but let's just chalk that up to semantics.

But I've only drawn and fired SIG Classic P series guns and never found that I couldn't locate, grasp, or draw using just the tang for an index point. So, maybe I'm missing something glaringly obvious and before I get to deep into this discussion I need to understand the technique you and others use to index on guns with tails.

Do you sweep your strong hand forward during the draw stroke so that the web of your hand contacts the tail and then slide it to the upper most portion? Or, during the draw stroke does the web of your strong hand immediately go to the upper most portion of the grip under the tail?

I really do like the way the Legion sits in my hand, but my impression was that my hand was able to grasp the gun just a fraction higher than the Classic P series because of the trigger guard undercut, and not because of the slightly extended tang "tail".

I guess I'm having difficulty visualizing the technique that allows one to have their hand grasp the gun higher with a tail than without one.
 
Posts: 3575 | Registered: August 21, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Great Equalizer
Picture of colt_saa
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
How many low light handgun training classes have you taken in the last 5 years colt_SAA?
Taken? Probably 1 or 2.

However I have no idea how many low light shooting classes I have taught over that time period


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Posts: 4404 | Location: Fort Lauderdale, Florida | Registered: November 04, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by colt_saa:
quote:
Originally posted by mbacker_99:
quote:
Originally posted by colt_saa:


For the private person, putting a flashlight on your gun violates one of the basic rules of Firearms Safety. . . "Never point your firearm at something you are not willing to destroy"

Using a firearm as a flashlight FORCES you to constantly point your firearm at things and people that you are NOT willing to destroy.


There is a big difference between using a wml and using your firearm as a flashlight.
Exactly


Perfect, then you do agree with jljones.
 
Posts: 138 | Location: Michigan | Registered: April 21, 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Great Equalizer
Picture of colt_saa
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by mbacker_99:
quote:
Originally posted by colt_saa:
quote:
Originally posted by mbacker_99:
quote:
Originally posted by colt_saa:


For the private person, putting a flashlight on your gun violates one of the basic rules of Firearms Safety. . . "Never point your firearm at something you are not willing to destroy"

Using a firearm as a flashlight FORCES you to constantly point your firearm at things and people that you are NOT willing to destroy.


There is a big difference between using a wml and using your firearm as a flashlight.
Exactly


Perfect, then you do agree with jljones.
Absolutly not. I totally disagree with jljones point of view.


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Posts: 4404 | Location: Fort Lauderdale, Florida | Registered: November 04, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
posted Hide Post
This is a sad example of what pride and ego looks like.

If this is what is currently being taught, there is no shame in asking for a refund. That goes for low light instructor courses too apparently. The sad part is that this tripe is being passed on to unsuspecting students as some sort of fact.

Please get some weapon mounted light training from a competent source folks.

Instructors can never stop learning. When they entrench themselves in false dogma so deeply that they are convinced they can't learn, it speaks volumes to those who will listen.


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"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011

"There are only two reasons why a proven technique doesn't work under stress: the shooter isn't adequately trained in it's application, or he/she doesn't really believe it will work because he/she is programmed for failure to begin with." BG

 
Posts: 30464 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
quote:
Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:
Did the standard SIG grip tang of the SIG Classic P series not allow you the same speed index draw?


Not Hays but I'll chime in.

It depends. SIG has three beaver tail contours on the P-Series guns. Some are extremely helpful over the no tail guns, others are a hinderance. The contour of the beaver tail on the Legion does allow me to get the gun higher, and is a pretty rock solid reference point. I get a more consistent grip at speed with this set up than I do a gun without it. But, when I shoot my tail-less guns, I don't freak out and lose my mind. It is just different.

The other tails aren't helpful at all in my opinion. Such as the offerings on the Enhanced Elites, and the Scorpion series guns. I'd just as soon see those guns come with no tail, or a Legion contoured tail as the monstrosity they come with now.


I'd still be interested to hear from Hayes on this, but I really do appreciate you chiming in on this issue!

I've held examples of all three of the "tail" variants, although I guess I wouldn't describe the Classic P Series as "tailess" so much as a gun with just a basic old school tang...but let's just chalk that up to semantics.

But I've only drawn and fired SIG Classic P series guns and never found that I couldn't locate, grasp, or draw using just the tang for an index point. So, maybe I'm missing something glaringly obvious and before I get to deep into this discussion I need to understand the technique you and others use to index on guns with tails.

Do you sweep your strong hand forward during the draw stroke so that the web of your hand contacts the tail and then slide it to the upper most portion? Or, during the draw stroke does the web of your strong hand immediately go to the upper most portion of the grip under the tail?

I really do like the way the Legion sits in my hand, but my impression was that my hand was able to grasp the gun just a fraction higher than the Classic P series because of the trigger guard undercut, and not because of the slightly extended tang "tail".

I guess I'm having difficulty visualizing the technique that allows one to have their hand grasp the gun higher with a tail than without one.


Hey man.

Let me see if I can put this another way. The Legion tails allows my hands to get higher on the gun. Mainly because it is a bit more comfortable when the flesh compresses around it. I get that high on the tang. I wouldn't say that it is more comfortable, but it is more consistent. My thumb gets really high on it, almost to the point when I first started shooting that way it was painful. With the Legion guns. I have no use for the Elites. I just don't find that beaver tail to be useful because it is too big and I can't get my flesh around it. My Legion is out in OR right now, or I'd post a pic.

Funny story, I saw a gun of Mike Boyd's that Bruce built. It was an enhanced Elite. Bruce did a reduction job on the beaver tail down to where it was usable. When the Legion's came out, it had this exact contour. Who'd have thought it?

Hope this helps!


_______________________________________________________________________
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Check out our customer appreciation class
http://sigforum.com/eve/forums...1105858/m/7790088624

"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011

"There are only two reasons why a proven technique doesn't work under stress: the shooter isn't adequately trained in it's application, or he/she doesn't really believe it will work because he/she is programmed for failure to begin with." BG

 
Posts: 30464 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
This is a sad example of what pride and ego looks like.

If this is what is currently being taught, there is no shame in asking for a refund. That goes for low light instructor courses too apparently. The sad part is that this tripe is being passed on to unsuspecting students as some sort of fact.

Please get some weapon mounted light training from a competent source folks.

Instructors can never stop learning. When they entrench themselves in false dogma so deeply that they are convinced they can't learn, it speaks volumes to those who will listen.
Agreed.




I'm Rick James.
 
Posts: 35648 | Location: Around | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of CQB60
posted Hide Post
I Like tail Smile IMHO, Rails do serve useful purpose. As the adage goes, better to have one and not need it than need it and not have it.


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The odds will be what the odds will be... so... "Send it"
امّا شما مشخص خواهد شد كه با همه شما را ملاقات کنند
 
Posts: 9995 | Location: Carolina but Texas in my heart | Registered: November 13, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Wow! This thread really turned into a vigorous discussion.

Don't have much of an opinion on tails. I kind of like the medium tail for my glocks but dont really see the need on a sig. They do look cool though.

As far as rails. I like them a lot. I like the way the rail looks and like the option of mounting a light if I choose to do so. I work for a police agency that issues P226s without rails. I heard they have to special order them now with no rails and short extractors. Working nights I can say that holding a flashlight, gun and doing other things like opening doors or talking on the radio are nearly impossible.
 
Posts: 137 | Location: Ohio | Registered: April 13, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Lead slingin'
Parrot Head
Picture of Modern Day Savage
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
Hey man.

Let me see if I can put this another way. The Legion tails allows my hands to get higher on the gun. Mainly because it is a bit more comfortable when the flesh compresses around it. I get that high on the tang. I wouldn't say that it is more comfortable, but it is more consistent. My thumb gets really high on it, almost to the point when I first started shooting that way it was painful. With the Legion guns. I have no use for the Elites. I just don't find that beaver tail to be useful because it is too big and I can't get my flesh around it. My Legion is out in OR right now, or I'd post a pic.

Funny story, I saw a gun of Mike Boyd's that Bruce built. It was an enhanced Elite. Bruce did a reduction job on the beaver tail down to where it was usable. When the Legion's came out, it had this exact contour. Who'd have thought it?

Hope this helps!


I guess I'm being obtuse because I'm still struggling to visualize how one grasps a tailed gun higher than one with a tang. Comfort is a personal thing and so if it makes the grasp more comfortable for someone I could certainly see a preference for the tail... but as far as positioning the strong hand higher on the grip I'm just drawing blanks on visualizing that. I guess I need to break out my coloring book and crayons and start trying to draw pictures. Big Grin

If you ever get around to it, I'd be interested to see one of your videos illustrating this concept!

Hey, good to know you guys can reduce the SIG Elite beaver tail profiles, as I've toyed with a couple projects in which the Elite series beaver tail was the deal breaker.
 
Posts: 3575 | Registered: August 21, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
addicted to trailing-throttle oversteer
Picture of soggy_spinout
posted Hide Post
Rails are handy even if they kinda spoil any 'purity' of a gun's styling. They don't bother me if they're there, but visually and functionally I do prefer M1913 over the stylized SIG version. Picatinny looks just fine on my Mk25; no need to try to visually conceal--rather unsuccessfully, I might add--the hard edges.

Tails: those too don't bug me. Generally I like how it indexes the SIG in hand, plus my hands will never be large enough to get any sort of high hold on a classic P-SIG. Ain't gonna happen, unless SIG suddenly starting making their P-SIGs in 7/8ths size. But I will fess up that appearance-wise the Elite tail does seem oversized on a P229. To me the Legion tail looks proportionally better on that size frame.

As for no-rail/no-tail aesthetics: that's a fine way to go as well. I own a small handful so configured. There's a less complicated simplicity to the look; not a bad thing especially considering that I like Glocks and their relatively bland styling (you call THAT styling?). Big Grin

But if I needed a Streamlight or Surefire...yeah, I'd take a rail if given the choice.
 
Posts: 7406 | Location: Drippin' wet | Registered: April 18, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
It's pronounced just
the way it's spelled
posted Hide Post
Count me in the no rail, no tail fan club. The P series rides so high to begin with, why on Earth would you need a beavertail??

As for the rails, unless I'm going for a hike in the woods at night, I see no reason for them. They make the gun bigger and heavier (and uglier, in my opinion). I pay my electric bills and use light switches to ID targets in the dark.
 
Posts: 620 | Location: Arid Zone A | Registered: February 14, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:
I guess I'm being obtuse because I'm still struggling to visualize how one grasps a tailed gun higher than one with a tang. Comfort is a personal thing and so if it makes the grasp more comfortable for someone I could certainly see a preference for the tail... but as far as positioning the strong hand higher on the grip I'm just drawing blanks on visualizing that. I guess I need to break out my coloring book and crayons and start trying to draw pictures. Big Grin

If you ever get around to it, I'd be interested to see one of your videos illustrating this concept!

Hey, good to know you guys can reduce the SIG Elite beaver tail profiles, as I've toyed with a couple projects in which the Elite series beaver tail was the deal breaker.


You are no way, shape, form or fashion being obtuse. I'll get you something when my guns come back. I'd be more than happy to help out. I'm in a weird spot right now because my Legion is off having a little work done on it, and my back up P226R had a catastrophic failure that I have never seen before.

So, I'm down to 229s and Berettas for the short term. If my back up 226 isn't repairable, I'm torn with what I'm going to replace it with. Part of me just says pick up a MK25 because I get them pretty cheap and be done with it as it is replacing a no tail gun.


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www.opspectraining.com
Check out our customer appreciation class
http://sigforum.com/eve/forums...1105858/m/7790088624

"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011

"There are only two reasons why a proven technique doesn't work under stress: the shooter isn't adequately trained in it's application, or he/she doesn't really believe it will work because he/she is programmed for failure to begin with." BG

 
Posts: 30464 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Chris Anchor
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And I might add that I don't like or need a squared trigger guards. A nice rounded one does just fine. Chris
 
Posts: 1508 | Location: Cecil Co. Maryland | Registered: January 08, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Honky Lips
Picture of FenderBender
posted Hide Post
I've no need for a WML and i think the rail detracts from the look of a pistol, I'll say I think the people at Hudson got it right with the H9 I think the rail on that looks good.




The philosophy of protectionism is a philosophy of war. - Ludwig von Mises
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DhagKyvDck

 
Posts: 7070 | Location: Live from the high desert and the great American southwest! | Registered: July 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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No rail German p226
No rail Italian Beretta Inox 92
No rail Kimber CDP
No rail Smith and Wesson 686 Cool
 
Posts: 111 | Location: Fort Myers, FL , USA | Registered: March 02, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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