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posted
Just a friendly question because it always comes up here:

Is there a reason so many members hate the rails and tails on their guns? I guess I can see the "traditionalist" view, but I find the rail to be quite useful! If I want a light I can mount it and if I dont, I can rake it off.

The other argument I could see is that sig usually uses a non standard curved rail. I can see this as being a legitimate gripe, but an easy fix on sigs part.


I get the tail thing.... You either like them or you don't.

So what do YOU dislike about the rail other than it not being a part of the original design?
 
Posts: 158 | Location: Ohio | Registered: April 13, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
For real?
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I'm just old. I like my SIG P-series and Berettas railless.



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Posts: 5117 | Location: South of Cleveland, OH | Registered: August 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I do not ask of all my pistols, the same functnality. For my Classic SIGs, which cannot match newer, polymer options in capacity nor concealability, a rail is somewhat superfluous (in my view).

Classic SIGs have somewhat tall and thin slides, which makes a picatinny rail a bit protrusive on the pistol. The SIG proprietary rail does not suffer from this downside and it still maintains general compatibility with current newer interfaces.

As for tails, they get in the way of manually cocking the hammer. Furthermore, due to the classic SIG's tall bore axis (and steep grip angle), tails are mostly unnecessary, since there is not a problem of slide bite, nor is the SIG so poorly designed as to allow hammer bite.

That being said, I do understand there are many reasons why these features are appealing to people. Some people like options for mounting lights. Others have different hands and wrists, which may find tails more confortable. Some may just like how they appear. Personally, I quite like the M11-A1. Difficult to get in California, but still my ideal SIG.
 
Posts: 106 | Location: California | Registered: July 09, 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I dont have any use for the rail or beavertail on my Sigs, but its not so much that as aesthetics, a more trim, snag-free frame, and better reliability with older pistols (older proven pistols)
 
Posts: 1402 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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No need for rails as I use a hand held flashlight if needed. Beaver tails are nice but again not really needed. Chris
 
Posts: 1530 | Location: Cecil Co. Maryland | Registered: January 08, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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On the other side of the discussion, I like the beavertail because it helps me index my hand on the grip for a speed draw. I can take or leave the rail for aesthetics, but for a duty gun it is an essential element.


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Posts: 1885 | Location: Florida Panhandle | Registered: September 27, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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It's like putting a spoiler or wing on an other wise classy looking car.



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Posts: 3408 | Location: Oklahoma | Registered: October 11, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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You know, I actually prefer the rail on any pistol that is sized P229-ish and above. It is all about adding functionality to the design. Heck, I even wish my P225A1 had a rail section to mount something like the Surefire XC1.

Now, beavertails were not something that I ever really liked. Visually, I think they take away from the lines of the pistol. The beavertail on the P226 ASE is really the only reason I haven't been able to bring myself to purchase it.

But personal taste is all it is and there is a butt for every seat.
 
Posts: 75 | Location: Oklahoma | Registered: July 08, 2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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As Glow points out, I don't have the same expectations for all my guns and functionality and ease of use are paramount features in how I select a gun. Aesthetics wise I would prefer the SIG Classic P series without either an accessory rail or any kind of a tail, beaver, duck or whatever. Accessory rail wise though, I do use a WML in some cases and so it serves a purpose for my intended use on some guns. I've even grown to the point where I don't think they are hideous anymore.

Tails, however, I just can't wrap my head around them, either aesthetically or functionally. In the many years I've been shooting Classic P series SIGs I've never found that I needed anything more than the classic grip tang to draw, fire, and control the gun, and adding an extra piece of metal only served to add weight and place pointy piece of metal in my side while concealed carrying.

Some may not recall, but there was a time when a user had the option of choosing a SIG with or without an accessory rail. When the rail was standardized on most of SIGs offerings I defended the decision because it made sense from a manufacturing streamlining standpoint, but since then there have been enough variations and inconsistencies in the SIG line-up that I just wish they would offer their customers the across-the-board option of an accessory rail and tail.

quote:
Originally posted by HayesGreener:
On the other side of the discussion, I like the beavertail because it helps me index my hand on the grip for a speed draw. I can take or leave the rail for aesthetics, but for a duty gun it is an essential element.


Did the standard SIG grip tang of the SIG Classic P series not allow you the same speed index draw?
 
Posts: 3593 | Registered: August 21, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I only need one gun with a rail. Used for a light on my home defense gun. But I have more that one gun and I like Sigs (all stainless only please) but don't need the rails on them.

Sig makes several models without rails but not nearly enough. I wonder if they would think about a rail on top of the pistol for optics.

The beavertail is of no consequence to me. Take it or leave it.
 
Posts: 882 | Location: Northern Nevada | Registered: December 22, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:
Did the standard SIG grip tang of the SIG Classic P series not allow you the same speed index draw?


Not Hays but I'll chime in.

It depends. SIG has three beaver tail contours on the P-Series guns. Some are extremely helpful over the no tail guns, others are a hinderance. The contour of the beaver tail on the Legion does allow me to get the gun higher, and is a pretty rock solid reference point. I get a more consistent grip at speed with this set up than I do a gun without it. But, when I shoot my tail-less guns, I don't freak out and lose my mind. It is just different.

The other tails aren't helpful at all in my opinion. Such as the offerings on the Enhanced Elites, and the Scorpion series guns. I'd just as soon see those guns come with no tail, or a Legion contoured tail as the monstrosity they come with now.


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Posts: 30647 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I like the way a beaver tail looks. I also like how it feels.





However I think that in addition to serving no useful purpose on a personally owned firearm, rails just ruin the lines of the gun

For the private person, putting a flashlight on your gun violates one of the basic rules of Firearms Safety. . . "Never point your firearm at something you are not willing to destroy"

Using a firearm as a flashlight FORCES you to constantly point your firearm at things and people that you are NOT willing to destroy.


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Posts: 4443 | Location: Fort Lauderdale, Florida | Registered: November 04, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by colt_saa:
For the private person, putting a flashlight on your gun violates one of the basic rules of Firearms Safety. . . "Never point your firearm at something you are not willing to destroy"

Using a firearm as a flashlight FORCES you to constantly point your firearm at things and people that you are NOT willing to destroy.


I hear this thrown around a bunch, and it is completely incorrect. As a matter of fact, I'll go as far as saying the ones that do point a WML equipped pistol at the wrong people, are the exact same ones that point a pistol without a light at the wrong people. It's just easier to blame the light on bad technique and the user being poorly trained. And that doesn't matter if you are a private person, a cop, or a soldier.

But, to say it FORCES you to point the gun at people is a wives tale that is repeated by people that apparently do not know any better. The light has zero to do with where the gun goes. It is bad technique (stupid, less efficient technique really) that causes people to point guns at others that don't need it. Day before yesterday, I shot a video on this subject to post on our youtube channel, and I'll get it up shortly.


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Posts: 30647 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I don't like rails on my Sigs or my Glocks... Big Grin





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Posts: 3641 | Location: Great State of TEXAS | Registered: July 05, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Great Equalizer
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quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
quote:
Originally posted by colt_saa:
For the private person, putting a flashlight on your gun violates one of the basic rules of Firearms Safety. . . "Never point your firearm at something you are not willing to destroy"

Using a firearm as a flashlight FORCES you to constantly point your firearm at things and people that you are NOT willing to destroy.


I hear this thrown around a bunch, and it is completely incorrect. As a matter of fact, I'll go as far as saying the ones that do point a WML equipped pistol at the wrong people, are the exact same ones that point a pistol without a light at the wrong people. It's just easier to blame the light on bad technique and the user being poorly trained.

But, to say it FORCES you to point the gun at people is a wives tale that is repeated by people that apparently do not know any better. The light has zero to do with where the gun goes. It is bad technique (stupid, less efficient technique really) that causes people to point guns at others that don't need it. Day before yesterday, I shot a video on this subject to post on our youtube channel, and I'll get it up shortly.
I have to totally disagree with you and I do know better

First of all, a VERY tiny percentage of Personal Firearms owners are "Trained"

Secondly, I am not talking about LEOs or Military, I am talking about private citizens in the course of their daily lives. You will note that my sentence began with "For the private person"

If you are using your gun as your flashlight it will be pointed at things that you Do Not wish to destroy. I just can not see how you can say otherwise.

And for the record, I never heard this from a single wife Smile


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Posts: 4443 | Location: Fort Lauderdale, Florida | Registered: November 04, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by colt_saa:
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
quote:
Originally posted by colt_saa:
For the private person, putting a flashlight on your gun violates one of the basic rules of Firearms Safety. . . "Never point your firearm at something you are not willing to destroy"

Using a firearm as a flashlight FORCES you to constantly point your firearm at things and people that you are NOT willing to destroy.


I hear this thrown around a bunch, and it is completely incorrect. As a matter of fact, I'll go as far as saying the ones that do point a WML equipped pistol at the wrong people, are the exact same ones that point a pistol without a light at the wrong people. It's just easier to blame the light on bad technique and the user being poorly trained.

But, to say it FORCES you to point the gun at people is a wives tale that is repeated by people that apparently do not know any better. The light has zero to do with where the gun goes. It is bad technique (stupid, less efficient technique really) that causes people to point guns at others that don't need it. Day before yesterday, I shot a video on this subject to post on our youtube channel, and I'll get it up shortly.
I have to totally disagree with you and I do know better

First of all, a VERY tiny percentage of Personal Firearms owners are "Trained"

Secondly, I am not talking about LEOs or Military, I am talking about private citizens in the course of their daily lives. You will note that my sentence began with "For the private person"

If you are using your gun as your flashlight it will be pointed at things that you Do Not wish to destroy. I just can not see how you can say otherwise.

And for the record, I never heard this from a single wife Smile


Disagree if you wish, but the facts speak otherwise.

Blaming a WML for bad acts, is like blaming the gun for bad acts. Blaming a spoon for making people fat.
And to make it worse, cops are by far worse trained (and rank and file soldiers for that matter) than most "private persons". They deserve no exemption for tom foolery. But, at the same time, stupidity doesn't give them a pass, and blame the light.

Putting a flashlight on a gun makes the gun no more unsafe than it started. Sorry. My suggestion would be to get some modern training on a subject before you attempt to speak with any authority on it.

The same arguments are made by anti-gunners about gun ownership by "private persons" and safety. And they are wrong as well. No where in your diatribe did it say "the untrained will point" a WML at the wrong people. You said, and I quote-

quote:
For the private person, putting a flashlight on your gun violates one of the basic rules of Firearms Safety. . . "Never point your firearm at something you are not willing to destroy"

Using a firearm as a flashlight FORCES you to constantly point your firearm at things and people that you are NOT willing to destroy.


Which is completely false. The WML doesn't force you to do a thing. I can absolutely prove it. Had you have said "the untrained running around with lights on guns make me uneasy". I could have totally agreed. But you stated "Putting a flashlight on your gun violates one of the......" to which is COMPLETELY false. Completely. To make things worse, you gave some of the worst offenders a pass. I've seen cops directing traffic with a WML. And I came completely unglued. But, that is no more the fault of the WML than any other bad technique. I've have been fighting this type of institutional ignorance for many years. Blame the dumbass, not the light.


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Posts: 30647 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I'm a fan of no rails and tails classic P series.

I did appreciate SIGs original proprietary rail when the first sport models came about.

I never understood tails on a handgun that naturally sat high in your hand to begin with.

Just my two cents.
 
Posts: 599 | Location: CA | Registered: January 23, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Great Equalizer
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quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
Disagree if you wish, but the facts speak otherwise.

Blaming a WML for bad acts, is like blaming the gun for bad acts. Blaming a spoon for making people fat.
And to make it worse, cops are by far worse trained (and rank and file soldiers for that matter) than most "private persons".

Putting a flashlight on a gun makes the gun no more unsafe than it started. Sorry. My suggestion would be to get some modern training on a subject before you attempt to speak with any authority on it.

The same arguments are made by anti-gunners about gun ownership by "private persons" and safety. And they are wrong as well.
WOW Talk about Thread Drift.

Sorry to have hit your NERVE on this issue

You can not possibly be saying that MOST Private persons are better trained than LEOs and the Military. I must have interpreted what you posted incorrectly.

In Modern America EVERY LEO and Military person receives firearms training, whether you agree with the content or not. VERY Few of the Private individuals that own Firearms in America receive training.

However, the FACTS do not speak otherwise this issue.

You appear to be reading my words but not listening to what they say.

NEVER did I say that putting a flashlight on a gun makes it unsafe. . . What I said and stand by is that Using a gun as your flashlight FORCES you to point the gun at things and people that you have No intention of destroying.

But I thank you for telling me that I need more training before I can talk and I appreciate your comparing my statements to Anti-Gunners.


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Posts: 4443 | Location: Fort Lauderdale, Florida | Registered: November 04, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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You didn't hit a nerve with me. I call them as I see them. Doubling down just doesn't help you out at blaming an inanimate object.

Maybe you should get some training before you attempt to speak with authority outside of your lane. Just a sincere suggestion.


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Posts: 30647 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
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Is this the part where TYPING IN ALL CAPS means you are right?

Or is it TYPING IN ALL CAPS BOLDED that proves the point? LMFAO.

Game, set, and match to Jones. But 99% already knew that.

Wink

Oh, can you actually carry TWO flashlights, like ONE ON YOUR GUN and ONE IN YOUR HAND????

Holy shit, that's amazing!!!
 
Posts: 36022 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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