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Full Size 320 With Night Sights - POA vs POI Question Login/Join 
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Does anyone have a full-sized P320 with night sights? If so, where would you have to aim at the target (center, bottom, top, a little bit to one side, whichever) in order to place your shots in the center of the target, and at what range?

To put it another way for those who've tried it, what's the difference between your point of aim and your point of impact at 25 yards?
 
Posts: 23280 | Location: Deep in the heart of the brush country, and closing on that #&*%!?! roadrunner. Really. | Registered: February 05, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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It will be somewhat dependent on your particular firearm and ammunition selection, but here are the generalities.

All SIG pistol sights are adjustable for windage, so you can adjust them to eliminate any sideways variation. The sights installed at the factory are usually designed to have the bullets impact directly on what ever part of the target is covered by the front dot. In other words, if you want to shoot someone in the chest, put the front dot in the middle of their chest.

That holds true on my full size P320 in .357 SIG out to about 20 yards. Beyond that, I find that the bullets impact closer to the top of the front sight. I actually find that works to my advantage because that is just about the distance where the dot starts to obscure a little too much of the target, so transitioning to the top of the sight is helpful, and to me it feels natural.


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Posts: 1366 | Location: Southwest Ohio | Registered: October 07, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Nullus Anxietas
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quote:
Originally posted by RichN:
The sights installed at the factory are usually designed to have the bullets impact directly on what ever part of the target is covered by the front dot.

That is not what I've read, elsewhere, nor what I've experienced. I've read that Sig sights are set for a 6 o'clock hold and it's been my personal experience that's what they do.

Note, however, that I rarely shoot handguns at 25 yards. The vast majority of my shooting is unsupported, at seven yards.




"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
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Posts: 15939 | Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by ensigmatic:
That is not what I've read, elsewhere, nor what I've experienced. I've read that Sig sights are set for a 6 o'clock hold and it's been my personal experience that's what they do.


From the SIG Sauer website FAQ:

My SIG SAUER pistol is not accurate. Why? What should I do?

All SIG SAUER production duty/combat pistols are set up to use a “combat” sight picture. This is where the front sight completely covers the bullseye of the target. Using a six o’clock (“pumpkin on a post”) or center mass (“half’n’half”) sight picture will result in low impact. SIG SAUER, Inc sights in all non-sporting and non-target pistols for 2.5 inch groupings @ 15 yards. If you are still having trouble please contact Customer Service for further help and instruction. Please have your serial number ready. There are also very helpful free Internet sites that cover pistol group analysis.

https://www.sigsauer.com/support/faqs/


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"They who would give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin

"So this is how liberty dies; with thunderous applause."
- Senator Amidala (Star Wars III: Revenge of the Sith)
 
Posts: 1366 | Location: Southwest Ohio | Registered: October 07, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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My experience is sig has drive the dot sights described exactly as to my experience above.
 
Posts: 2200 | Registered: June 18, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
The vast majority of my shooting is unsupported, at seven yards

I which case this issue won't make any meaningful difference. But SIG sights are designed for a combat sight picture. Which personally I happen to like, center the dot on the target and go. That said one of the good things about sig is that you can get different site heights (of course assuming you can find them) and adjust to your liking.


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Posts: 7799 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I know SIG says they're sighted combat from the factory, which I have seen in the contrast sights. But every night sight SIG I have shoots 50/50 (P228, P229, SP2022, P320). The contrast on my other P229 are combat.


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Posts: 1620 | Registered: June 25, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The problem with sights is everyone's use of them is a bit different. I have night sights (factory) on dozens of sigs and I shoot them as combat sight pictures. That doesn't mean that is exactly how they would work for someone else. But its how Sig designed it.


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 7799 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by ensigmatic:
quote:
Originally posted by RichN:
The sights installed at the factory are usually designed to have the bullets impact directly on what ever part of the target is covered by the front dot.

That is not what I've read, elsewhere, nor what I've experienced. I've read that Sig sights are set for a 6 o'clock hold and it's been my personal experience that's what they do.

Note, however, that I rarely shoot handguns at 25 yards. The vast majority of my shooting is unsupported, at seven yards.


I've heard the same stories and from personal experience I think it was true for a period of time (mid 2000s?) Most Sigs I've shot shoot so that the bullet hits either flat or a tiny bit high. BUT I have had a couple Classic line Sigs shoot to the front dot, basically a little low.

I've never heard any official word from Sig about this, not that it hasn't been said possibly but I've never heard it. It may be a simple matter of some guns shoot that way or that some machine spat out guns like that for a period of time on purpose or by accident.

Like I said, most of mine don't but I have had some that do. I have gathered several Sig sight sets over the years and I will generally replace sights myself in order to get mine to shoot to where I want them too, which is basically flat. Point of Aim = Point of Impact at 25 yards.
 
Posts: 975 | Registered: September 06, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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BuddyChryst, if you don't mind a question, what is "50/50" in this context?

For those of you who may be wondering, the reason I'm asking is because I've shot a recent production Sig with night sights that seemed 'way off for elevation. When I asked SIG CS about it, I was told that it's sighted in for a six o'clock hold on (I beleive) a 12" bull at fifteen yards. When I aimed for the center of the bull at 25 yards, I consistently hit the top of the bull for a difference between POA and POI of six inches vertically.
 
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Originally posted by Il Cattivo:
BuddyChryst, if you don't mind a question, what is "50/50" in this context?

Yeah, I'm curious too. I've heard that kind of ratio in reference to shotguns and how much of the shot pattern is above/below the POA. How does it work with single projectiles?
 
Posts: 577 | Registered: December 07, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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50/50 is when you align the sights and cut the target / bullseye in half with the top edge of the sights. My preferred sight picture as essentially POA = POI and I prefer to have a better view of my actual target for punching paper or defensive purposes.


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Posts: 4211 | Location: South Florida | Registered: April 03, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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"Combat sight picture" was an invention by SIG marketing. It sounds badass, and works to their advantage because it does. But, it is a scape goat to why some of the guns don't zero worth a damn. About the time they stopped sending zero targets with the gun, and assembly became more of a puppy mill than craftsmanship, "COMBAT SIGHT PICTURE" surfaced. It first surfaced from customer service because there is no rhyme nor reason to where the guns hit.

But, in all honesty, they don't really care. 99 percent of the guns they sell are shot occasionally at best, and not much past 21 feet. At 21 feet, it really doesn't matter much which sights you put on the gun.

I posted a picture from a SIG academy manual the last time this stuff came up. And the Academy does not teach "combat sight picture". I'll see if I can find it and post it again.


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Posts: 32873 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by toivo:
quote:
Originally posted by Il Cattivo:
BuddyChryst, if you don't mind a question, what is "50/50" in this context?

Yeah, I'm curious too. I've heard that kind of ratio in reference to shotguns and how much of the shot pattern is above/below the POA. How does it work with single projectiles?


Let's drag out this old image:


So #1 is 6 o'clock hold or pumpkin on a post. I've never shot bullseye, so I'm not familiar with it. I get the idea-you can see your target completely, the pistol/sights aren't obscuring anything. My issue with it is (probably because I have never shot bullseye) is how big is the bullseye circle? 1", 2"?

#2 is what I think most people consider "traditional" or POA=POI (a phrase I hate, but I'll skip that), or what is in question, "50/50". Essentially the equator of the bullseye is aligned with the top of the sights (which themselves are aligned). 50% of the bullseye is above the sights, 50% is below.

#3 is the "combat" sight image, where you cover the intended target with your front sight. The image I used doesn't have dots, because some like to argue about the 3-dot alignment not matching top of sights alignment. Probably shouldn't even have mentioned it. I think the theory with this is "drive the dot" even into "point shooting". That's another conversation I don't want to start.

I understand the theory (if you will) behind each. My preference is #2, where I expect the bullet hole to land where the aligned tops of my sights were. The question relating to all three also becomes, at what range is it sighted for?

I defer to Jones on the background of the SIG sights. He certainly has the experience with SIG to make educated statements. I can only relate my limited personal experience, which as I stated before was contrast sights seem to be "combat" (#3) where night sights seem to be "traditional" (#2).


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Posts: 1620 | Registered: June 25, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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OK, got it. Thanks for the very clear explanation. I was under the (mistaken) impression that "combat sight picture" was #2, but now I see my error.
 
Posts: 577 | Registered: December 07, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I see, too. I think the original "combat sight picture" using the dot on the front post as the aiming point was supposed to be for "shorter" distances (than 25 yards? or 50 meters? no idea). How the whole "15 yards and a 6 o'clock hold" thing came about, I can't imagine, but that's why I went looking here to see if the 320F night sights are set up for the 50/50 sight picture and, if so, at what range.

Normally it wouldn't be that big a deal, but

(1) I'm used to Sigs being pretty much dead on with a center hold at 25 yards, and

(2) replacement night sights are expensive enough that I don't want to pay a roughly $100 premium for a pistol that comes from the factory with sights that I consider to be very badly misaligned.
 
Posts: 23280 | Location: Deep in the heart of the brush country, and closing on that #&*%!?! roadrunner. Really. | Registered: February 05, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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