quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
Hey, facts are facts and what happened is history.

Or maybe we should selectively re-write history, like the commies?

We’ve heard a lot of different experiences, positive and negative, some don’t seem to be able to follow the thread or it confuses them. It takes all types I guess.

quote:

Originally posted by matthew03:
We’ve heard a lot of different experiences, positive and negative, some don’t seem to be able to follow the thread or it confuses them. It takes all types I guess.

Certainly does.

quote:

Originally posted by Grayguns:
This thread is too confused to sort out and make straight from the beginning, so I’ll just tell y’all that I’ll repeat what I’ve stated before: a round in any P320 cannot fire from a striker impact unless it is fully chambered and the barrel is locked to the slide sufficiently to contain normal pressure. I’ve set up multiile tests to determine whether the original P320 could fire out of battery. It can’t, so something else is going on here. With the overwhelming popularity of this pistol, including among our students, it’s no wonder why we see a cluster of bad ammo failing in them over other models. Our last OpSpec class at SIG? 16 P320’s out of 20 students.
In this case here, it’s obviously the ammo. If I read correctly, even the P320-bashing ammo monger enthusiastically agrees, now that he is off the hook for selling it.

quote:

Originally post by jljones:
Well, the good news I can tell you for sure is that once the gun is upgraded, the new disconnector takes the potential for this to happen away.
For something that "can't happen", this has happened five times in classes since October. Only to P320s. Same ammo shot in other guns with no problems. No actual evidence that points to the ammo. No other ammunition related over charges or whatever in other manufacturers. None. No other ammunition related issues with other SIG products. The damage to the P320s is exact each time. Same as the pictures above with the addition to a crack in the frame from the rail to cut out where the serial number is. I'm skeptical to say the least. But, like I said, the new trigger upgrade fixes the problem as the disconnector won't let the gun fire out of battery.

One of these is not like the other.
I respect both of these members opinions a lot but *something* is blowing out extractors on the 320.
With all due respect to Bruce who has forgotten more than I will ever know about handguns, Jerry's post leads us to believe it doesn't seem to be ammo related.

Are we at the point of you better buy a 320 with the upgrade or pass on it?

quote:

Originally posted by RichN:

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
... And Gray says it can't happen. I trust him...

Not to be a jerk, but he also said the original P320 could not fire when dropped. Even implied that all of the internet video to the contrary was either faked or using improperly modified guns.

Do you have anything to back this up? I read through those initial shit storm threads and don’t recall such statements or implied thoughts.

Also, I wonder how a SIG lawyer would feel about that vendor’s original letter.

quote:

Originally posted by flesheatingvirus:
Do you have anything to back this up? I read through those initial shit storm threads and don’t recall such statements or implied thoughts.

Also, I wonder how a SIG lawyer would feel about that vendor’s original letter.

I think SIG has enough to worry about with the LEO lawsuits and this kind of talk -

"But in 2016, when the manufacturer was closing a deal with the Army, the Army found that occasionally when the gun was dropped it would fire by itself. As a condition of the deal, Sig Sauer upgraded the firearms to fix the problem, but the company then sold the pre-upgrade version to the general public for several months, according to a CNN investigation."

Deputy is suing SIG for $10 million from P320 injury

Or maybe it's the great Glock Fanboi conspiracy?

You decide.

quote:

Originally posted by flesheatingvirus:

quote:

Originally posted by RichN:

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
... And Gray says it can't happen. I trust him...

Not to be a jerk, but he also said the original P320 could not fire when dropped. Even implied that all of the internet video to the contrary was either faked or using improperly modified guns.

Do you have anything to back this up? I read through those initial shit storm threads and don’t recall such statements or implied thoughts.

Also, I wonder how a SIG lawyer would feel about that vendor’s original letter.

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quote:

Originally posted by RichN:

quote:

Originally posted by flesheatingvirus:

quote:

Originally posted by RichN:

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
... And Gray says it can't happen. I trust him...

Not to be a jerk, but he also said the original P320 could not fire when dropped. Even implied that all of the internet video to the contrary was either faked or using improperly modified guns.

Do you have anything to back this up? I read through those initial shit storm threads and don’t recall such statements or implied thoughts.

Also, I wonder how a SIG lawyer would feel about that vendor’s original letter.

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https://sigforum.com/eve/forums...935/m/8930050824/p/2

You took what Bruce stated and twisted it into 2 very broad generalizations that he didn’t appear to make. Props for at least pointing out the post in question.

quote:

Originally posted by flesheatingvirus:

You took what Bruce stated and twisted it into 2 very broad generalizations that he didn’t actually make. Props for at least pointing out the post in question.

Look, he did. Hell, I did. For the first 10-15 pages of that thread, we were skeptical based upon what we knew. Or what we thought we knew. All the drop safe testing was done, and it was done to the extreme. But, at that time, for what we all knew, it was done from a specific height in four orientations. Muzzle down, muzzle up, left side, right side. And the 320 passed time and time again. Hell, some aftermarket parts vendors I know spent big money testing their products, and had zero issues. At that point, all of the "failure" videos were folks that tested various guns and they "failed" a made up torture test, which surprisingly was passed by each gun that was sold in this persons gun shop. That type of "look at me" videos that plaques youtube as actual research but it is nothing more than a 15 minute advertisement for what that particular channel is hawking.

And then lots of somebodies starting trying to get the gun to fail. And they started ticking off degrees, which all passed. Until 30. And at that point, when people started testing the guns at 30 to prove/disprove the videos, the truth came out. And it was ugly. When dropped, the 320 will fire under specific circumstances that no one had seen before.

Shit happens. But, all is good as long as we learn from the experience and do not make the same mistake twice. And mine directly was learning there is always a never and never an always.

I'll share an opinion with you guys, and pass along first hand knowledge that I have, but I won't preach to anyone after that that. Guns do weird things under certain sets of conditions, and we can't always predict it.

Testing shows the presence, not the absence of bugs. Dijkstra (1969)

quote:

Originally posted by RichN:

quote:

Originally posted by flesheatingvirus:

quote:

Originally posted by RichN:

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
... And Gray says it can't happen. I trust him...

Not to be a jerk, but he also said the original P320 could not fire when dropped. Even implied that all of the internet video to the contrary was either faked or using improperly modified guns.

Do you have anything to back this up? I read through those initial shit storm threads and don’t recall such statements or implied thoughts.

Also, I wonder how a SIG lawyer would feel about that vendor’s original letter.

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To clarify...

quote:

Even implied that all of the internet video to the contrary was either faked or using improperly modified guns.

That video being referred to - at that time - was a fake video. Few folks saw it, and it was anonymously posted to YouTube and pulled. That video was released in early June 2017 and was pulled around the third week of the month. It was NOT a video of the P320 being dropped at the specific angle later determined to be an issue.

Also, the Dallas PD "fired when dropped" story never happened. That story totally changed from an AD to a LT in the training division reading the manual and freaking out about the language. (IIRC)

Of course, things developed after that and more information became available.

As so many times before, the Internet acts like a megaphone and telegraph, and ever-so-quickly amplifies and changes good questions and good comments into "hard facts" and "certainties everyone knows." It's hard to get in and then ahead of such a powerful generator of urban myths before they become entrenched. It is awesome to behold in action, and disheartening. In the end, the process defeats the good and promotes the bad in men.

We really need to think twice before we give currency to half-truths, unsubstantiated "news" and other drivel. Once in the machine, it is hard to shake it free and into the trash, where it belongs. It is terrifically difficult to kill a rumor, however badly founded, once it is born.