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posted
I'm guessing it will still be the Beretta.

My niece has joined the WVANG (167AW) and will leave for basic in a month or two, then stay at Lackland for Security Forces training where she will get to fire lots of weapons at Lackland and Camp Bullis.

FWIW, the AF has a major small arms repair facility on what used to be Medina Base across the highway from Lackland's main base.

I'm guessing she will qualify with Beretta in tech school and transition to the Sig when her ANG unit gets them. Is that correct?
 
Posts: 13312 | Location: Eastern Iowa | Registered: May 21, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Highly unlikely she’ll touch a pistol at all. But, yes, if she does it will probably be a Beretta. As I understand it security forces run rifles, until a certain rank.


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Posts: 32000 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I concur with jljones, when / if she does see a pistol, it will be a Beretta


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Posts: 10995 | Location: Carolina but Texas in my heart | Registered: November 13, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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It will be years before everyone who carries a pistol will get the sig. ANG units will be some of the last to get them.
 
Posts: 2526 | Registered: December 06, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Sigmund:

...FWIW, the AF has a major small arms repair facility on what used to be Medina Base across the highway from Lackland's main base...


Found an article, I drove by the structure a few years ago:

https://www.aetc.af.mil/News/A...ts-new-name-command/
 
Posts: 13312 | Location: Eastern Iowa | Registered: May 21, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Airmen attending the Security Forces Academy are trained with handgun and long guns as well as non-lethal force in their 2-month basic academy. They are the uniformed military police force for the Air Force, in addition to their security mission. What they carry on duty depends upon duty assignment.


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Posts: 2447 | Location: Florida Panhandle | Registered: September 27, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Get my pies
outta the oven!

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M-9 for sure.

They won’t see that new Sig for years yet.


 
Posts: 23890 | Location: Pennsylvania | Registered: November 12, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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She’ll qualify on and carry the M9 depending on posting in addition to the M4 and other weapon systems(i.e. M203, M249, M240 etc).


United States Air Force Security Forces Operation Enduring Freedom veteran.

Proud resident of Glockburg.
 
Posts: 491 | Location: North East Illinois | Registered: September 28, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
Highly unlikely she’ll touch a pistol at all. But, yes, if she does it will probably be a Beretta. As I understand it security forces run rifles, until a certain rank.


USAF Security Forces are all trained on and carry pistols.

Unlike regular Army and Marine units, the USAF are prolific users of pistols and the security forces have a decent pistol training program.

Agree it will be a Beretta.
 
Posts: 320 | Location: Texas | Registered: March 25, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Get my pies
outta the oven!

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quote:
Originally posted by HCM:


Unlike regular Army and Marine units, the USAF are prolific users of pistols and the security forces have a decent pistol training program.



They are? That's not what I saw while serving in the Air National Guard and deployed on AD with them. Most Air Force types outside Security Forces MIGHT touch a M16 (maybe M4 now?) once a year and I saw few use or carry pistols outside of SF. Most AF types I knew barely knew anything about guns of any sort.


 
Posts: 23890 | Location: Pennsylvania | Registered: November 12, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by PASig:
quote:
Originally posted by HCM:


Unlike regular Army and Marine units, the USAF are prolific users of pistols and the security forces have a decent pistol training program.



They are? That's not what I saw while serving in the Air National Guard and deployed on AD with them. Most Air Force types outside Security Forces MIGHT touch a M16 (maybe M4 now?) once a year and I saw few use or carry pistols outside of SF. Most AF types I knew barely knew anything about guns of any sort.


That matches my experience at overseas bases like Kadena. Saw lots of M16A1s in the hands of security forces. Can’t recall ever seeing a pistol anywhere, except the occasional NCO/SNCO when they would come out in large numbers for take off and recovery of the SR-71. Which was always awesome.
Chow halls and Barricks were excellent though.

Interesting thread, though to say the least.


_______________________________________________________________________
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"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011



 
Posts: 32000 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
LIBERTATEM DEFENDIMUS
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No, sky cops carry the M9 regularly. I go through an Air Force gate on a daily basis. M9s are the standard issue with the security forces. It's also pretty common to see them sporting M4s as well. Rank has nothing to do with what they are issued. It's been that way since the M9 was originally fielded.

It's also true that outside of Security Forces, many AF specialists will likely never be issued a firearm. When I was Active Duty and in the Reserves, I qualified annually with the M16 and M9 but was never issued either one. I was an avionics specialist.
 
Posts: 4921 | Registered: October 18, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Armed and Gregarious
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quote:
Originally posted by HCM:
. . . and the security forces have a decent pistol training program.
If that is true, then things must have changed dramatically in the last few years. For example, they refused allow anything other than the Weaver stance until about 10 years ago. Even after allowing an Isoceles stance, they discouraged Isocoles/Modified Iso, and pushed Weaver as God's gift to pistol shooting. Among the grips taught a few years ago they were still teaching hooking the trigger guard with the support hand index finger, and worse yet the "cup & saucer" grip. They foolishly were telling shooters " cross dominance" was a huge handicap, when it has zero relevance when shooting pistols.

Combat Arms Training & Maintenance (CATM) instructors, the Security Forces personnel responsible for all small arms training, had a very high opinion of themselves and the quality of their training, but again, unless there have been HUGE changes in how they actually train the troops the training is mediocre (and that's being generous).


___________________________________________
"He was never hindered by any dogma, except the Constitution." - Ty Ross speaking of his grandfather General Barry Goldwater

"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen, and I say let us give them all they want." - William Tecumseh Sherman
 
Posts: 12402 | Location: Nomad | Registered: January 10, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by DMF:
quote:
Originally posted by HCM:
. . . and the security forces have a decent pistol training program.
If that is true, then things must have changed dramatically in the last few years. For example, they refused allow anything other than the Weaver stance until about 10 years ago. Even after allowing an Isoceles stance, they discouraged Isocoles/Modified Iso, and pushed Weaver as God's gift to pistol shooting. Among the grips taught a few years ago they were still teaching hooking the trigger guard with the support hand index finger, and worse yet the "cup & saucer" grip. They foolishly were telling shooters " cross dominance" was a huge handicap, when it has zero relevance when shooting pistols.

Combat Arms Training & Maintenance (CATM) instructors, the Security Forces personnel responsible for all small arms training, had a very high opinion of themselves and the quality of their training, but again, unless there have been HUGE changes in how they actually train the troops the training is mediocre (and that's being generous).


The training can vary depending on the instructor, but none of the things you mentioned are in the curriculum. I've had different CATM members run each of the quals I've been to over the last four years and it has always been grip high on the weapon, thumbs forward, and get as much of your support hand in contact as you can. They specifically tell everyone not to hook the trigger guard or cup & saucer. I've also seen them do one on one coaching in the event someone's hand size or build makes the normal grip difficult. As far as stance goes they cover Weaver but strongly encourage modified iso since the expectation is you will be wearing a vest. This just covers the basic M-9 qual, the M-4 course has incorporated even more changes, the firing tables are completely different from the M-16.
 
Posts: 6 | Location: USA | Registered: September 18, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Armed and Gregarious
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quote:
Originally posted by APG06:
quote:
Originally posted by DMF:
quote:
Originally posted by HCM:
. . . and the security forces have a decent pistol training program.
If that is true, then things must have changed dramatically in the last few years. For example, they refused allow anything other than the Weaver stance until about 10 years ago. Even after allowing an Isoceles stance, they discouraged Isocoles/Modified Iso, and pushed Weaver as God's gift to pistol shooting. Among the grips taught a few years ago they were still teaching hooking the trigger guard with the support hand index finger, and worse yet the "cup & saucer" grip. They foolishly were telling shooters " cross dominance" was a huge handicap, when it has zero relevance when shooting pistols.

Combat Arms Training & Maintenance (CATM) instructors, the Security Forces personnel responsible for all small arms training, had a very high opinion of themselves and the quality of their training, but again, unless there have been HUGE changes in how they actually train the troops the training is mediocre (and that's being generous).


The training can vary depending on the instructor, but none of the things you mentioned are in the curriculum. I've had different CATM members run each of the quals I've been to over the last four years and it has always been grip high on the weapon, thumbs forward, and get as much of your support hand in contact as you can. They specifically tell everyone not to hook the trigger guard or cup & saucer. I've also seen them do one on one coaching in the event someone's hand size or build makes the normal grip difficult. As far as stance goes they cover Weaver but strongly encourage modified iso since the expectation is you will be wearing a vest. This just covers the basic M-9 qual, the M-4 course has incorporated even more changes, the firing tables are completely different from the M-16.
Then those are very recent changes, as all the things I described were part of the CATM curriculum just a few years ago. A few CATM instructors I knew, who actually had a clue, were complaining that it was all still there, and required by their chain of command, so they are probably happy things have changed.


___________________________________________
"He was never hindered by any dogma, except the Constitution." - Ty Ross speaking of his grandfather General Barry Goldwater

"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen, and I say let us give them all they want." - William Tecumseh Sherman
 
Posts: 12402 | Location: Nomad | Registered: January 10, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by DMF:
quote:
Originally posted by HCM:
. . . and the security forces have a decent pistol training program.
If that is true, then things must have changed dramatically in the last few years. For example, they refused allow anything other than the Weaver stance until about 10 years ago. Even after allowing an Isoceles stance, they discouraged Isocoles/Modified Iso, and pushed Weaver as God's gift to pistol shooting. Among the grips taught a few years ago they were still teaching hooking the trigger guard with the support hand index finger, and worse yet the "cup & saucer" grip. They foolishly were telling shooters " cross dominance" was a huge handicap, when it has zero relevance when shooting pistols.

Combat Arms Training & Maintenance (CATM) instructors, the Security Forces personnel responsible for all small arms training, had a very high opinion of themselves and the quality of their training, but again, unless there have been HUGE changes in how they actually train the troops the training is mediocre (and that's being generous).


The USAF overhauled their handgun program and rolled out a new handgun training program in the last few years. I think they started in 2012 and rolled out a new CATM manual in 2016.

Caleb Giddings Of gun nuts media / top shot fame (a bianchi cup competitor) went through USAF SF training in 2015 and posted about it on his blog:

https://www.gunnuts.net/2015/0...af-handgun-training/

The new 2016 training standards are here: http://static.e-publishing.af....655/afman36-2655.pdf

It may not be cutting edge but Compared to the regular Army Pistol course - this is solid.
 
Posts: 320 | Location: Texas | Registered: March 25, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Armed and Gregarious
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by HCM:
quote:
Originally posted by DMF:
quote:
Originally posted by HCM:
. . . and the security forces have a decent pistol training program.
If that is true, then things must have changed dramatically in the last few years. For example, they refused allow anything other than the Weaver stance until about 10 years ago. Even after allowing an Isoceles stance, they discouraged Isocoles/Modified Iso, and pushed Weaver as God's gift to pistol shooting. Among the grips taught a few years ago they were still teaching hooking the trigger guard with the support hand index finger, and worse yet the "cup & saucer" grip. They foolishly were telling shooters " cross dominance" was a huge handicap, when it has zero relevance when shooting pistols.

Combat Arms Training & Maintenance (CATM) instructors, the Security Forces personnel responsible for all small arms training, had a very high opinion of themselves and the quality of their training, but again, unless there have been HUGE changes in how they actually train the troops the training is mediocre (and that's being generous).


The USAF overhauled their handgun program and rolled out a new handgun training program in the last few years. I think they started in 2012 and rolled out a new CATM manual in 2016.

Caleb Giddings Of gun nuts media / top shot fame (a bianchi cup competitor) went through USAF SF training in 2015 and posted about it on his blog:

https://www.gunnuts.net/2015/0...af-handgun-training/

The new 2016 training standards are here: http://static.e-publishing.af....655/afman36-2655.pdf

It may not be cutting edge but Compared to the regular Army Pistol course - this is solid.
While it seems there has been improvement in the program, it's obvious by the AFI you linked to they are still woefully out of date. The official policy is still that Weaver is preferred.

Also, as recently as 2011-2012, Weaver was taught as preferable to Modified Iso, and "hooking the trigger gaurd," and the "cup & saucer" grip were still being taught as an acceptable grip. As I said, I haven't kept up with it in the last few years, but just a few years ago, the few CATM instructors I knew, who had a clue, were still complaining about how woefully outdated the training was regarding pistols. Hell, I saw their some of their training materials around 2012, which showed photos of what they considered proper techniques for grip and stance, and it was shameful. Keep in mind they were picking what they thought were great examples, and it still looked horrible.

Further, that AFI, which is dated 2016, shows the AF is required to teach outdated crap, such as Weaver, and the AFI says, "Bring weapon to eye level; do not lower head to weapon." As a result the USAF CATM "experts," tell students to keep their heads up.

Does that seem to be what these guys (who know a thing or two about shooting) are doing?








Those guys aren't head erect, bringing the gun up to their eyes. They have a good athletic stance. Shoulders rolled forward, and they're putting their eyes behind the gun.

Is AF pistol training the worst training regarding pistols? No, but there is HUGE room for improvement. I don't really fault the younger CATM troops. They are being fed a bunch of BS, by old guys who learned to shoot 2 decades ago, using training that was already outdated by more than a decade back then, and further led to believe that they are hot stuff because they can shoot "expert" on the USAF pistol qual (which is VERY easy, just check the AFI). You're only required to get 41 of 45 rounds on the paper (and that paper is HUGE), and then only 6 out of 13 "head" shots actually need to be in the 6" scoring circle, and only 25 out of 32 "body" shots, need to be in the 10" scoring circle. Add to that they are given huge amounts of time to accomplish all that. Yet, they are told they're "experts" with pistols, because they could get just 91% of their rounds on a HUGE silhouette, and just 45% of their head shots in a HUGE scoring circle, and just 81% of their body shots in another HUGE scoring circle.

I'll give them this, they at least trust the troops to carry the M9 chamber loaded, de-cocked with the safety off, and have done so since the M9 went into service 3 decades ago. Which, wasn't always the case with the other services.


___________________________________________
"He was never hindered by any dogma, except the Constitution." - Ty Ross speaking of his grandfather General Barry Goldwater

"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen, and I say let us give them all they want." - William Tecumseh Sherman
 
Posts: 12402 | Location: Nomad | Registered: January 10, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by DMF:
quote:
Originally posted by HCM:
quote:
Originally posted by DMF:
quote:
Originally posted by HCM:
. . . and the security forces have a decent pistol training program.
If that is true, then things must have changed dramatically in the last few years. For example, they refused allow anything other than the Weaver stance until about 10 years ago. Even after allowing an Isoceles stance, they discouraged Isocoles/Modified Iso, and pushed Weaver as God's gift to pistol shooting. Among the grips taught a few years ago they were still teaching hooking the trigger guard with the support hand index finger, and worse yet the "cup & saucer" grip. They foolishly were telling shooters " cross dominance" was a huge handicap, when it has zero relevance when shooting pistols.

Combat Arms Training & Maintenance (CATM) instructors, the Security Forces personnel responsible for all small arms training, had a very high opinion of themselves and the quality of their training, but again, unless there have been HUGE changes in how they actually train the troops the training is mediocre (and that's being generous).


The USAF overhauled their handgun program and rolled out a new handgun training program in the last few years. I think they started in 2012 and rolled out a new CATM manual in 2016.

Caleb Giddings Of gun nuts media / top shot fame (a bianchi cup competitor) went through USAF SF training in 2015 and posted about it on his blog:

https://www.gunnuts.net/2015/0...af-handgun-training/

The new 2016 training standards are here: http://static.e-publishing.af....655/afman36-2655.pdf

It may not be cutting edge but Compared to the regular Army Pistol course - this is solid.
While it seems there has been improvement in the program, it's obvious by the AFI you linked to they are still woefully out of date. The official policy is still that Weaver is preferred.

Also, as recently as 2011-2012, Weaver was taught as preferable to Modified Iso, and "hooking the trigger gaurd," and the "cup & saucer" grip were still being taught as an acceptable grip. As I said, I haven't kept up with it in the last few years, but just a few years ago, the few CATM instructors I knew, who had a clue, were still complaining about how woefully outdated the training was regarding pistols. Hell, I saw their some of their training materials around 2012, which showed photos of what they considered proper techniques for grip and stance, and it was shameful. Keep in mind they were picking what they thought were great examples, and it still looked horrible.

Further, that AFI, which is dated 2016, shows the AF is required to teach outdated crap, such as Weaver, and the AFI says, "Bring weapon to eye level; do not lower head to weapon." As a result the USAF CATM "experts," tell students to keep their heads up.

Does that seem to be what these guys (who know a thing or two about shooting) are doing?



Those guys aren't head erect, bringing the gun up to their eyes. They have a good athletic stance. Shoulders rolled forward, and they're putting their eyes behind the gun.

Is AF pistol training the worst training regarding pistols? No, but there is HUGE room for improvement. I don't really fault the younger CATM troops. They are being fed a bunch of BS, by old guys who learned to shoot 2 decades ago, using training that was already outdated by more than a decade back then, and further led to believe that they are hot stuff because they can shoot "expert" on the USAF pistol qual (which is VERY easy, just check the AFI). You're only required to get 41 of 45 rounds on the paper (and that paper is HUGE), and then only 6 out of 13 "head" shots actually need to be in the 6" scoring circle, and only 25 out of 32 "body" shots, need to be in the 10" scoring circle. Add to that they are given huge amounts of time to accomplish all that. Yet, they are told they're "experts" with pistols, because they could get just 91% of their rounds on a HUGE silhouette, and just 45% of their head shots in a HUGE scoring circle, and just 81% of their body shots in another HUGE scoring circle.

I'll give them this, they at least trust the troops to carry the M9 chamber loaded, de-cocked with the safety off, and have done so since the M9 went into service 3 decades ago. Which, wasn't always the case with the other services.


"The AFQC provides Air Force members with the minimum training; weapon safety, mechanical, operator maintenance, handling, marksmanship skills and performance evaluations required for qualification with a handgun."

Key word here is "minimum". This is the basic qaul, if you are security forces, a battlefield airman AFSC, or other career field that routinely carries a weapon you shoot to a higher standard and have a more advanced qual. I will completely agree that the majority of the weapons training is outdated, but you have to remember this is the military we are talking about, change comes slow. To put some numbers to this an AFI only requires review every 4 years.

No where does it say Weaver is perferred, and if you read the description of what a Weaver stance is according to the AFI what they describe is actually something closer to a modified Isosceles "To assume the Weaver stance, take a standing position facing the target with the feet shoulder width apart, step back with the strong side foot about 5 to 8 inches, and pivot on the balls of your feet 45 degrees to the weak side (very similar to a boxer’s stance)." Should they have actually outlined use of modified isosceles sure, but at least no one is told to blade to the target anymore.

The Air Force is probably the least interested in small arms compared to any of the other services. It is actually amazing they devoted any time at all to updating training or equipment outside specific career fields. Maybe back in 2012 (which I would hardly call recent) things were still really backwards my experience from that time was things were outdated but not to the degree you claim to have seen. We are finally seeing leadership that grew up in OEF/OIF reach HQ levels and there is actually a push to modernize and update both training and equipment. There is some good stuff coming from the Security Forces Center and elsewhere.
 
Posts: 6 | Location: USA | Registered: September 18, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Don't compare basic security force training with what they get in their units, (it's like comparing your police academy and then your own Dept. training). In my area AF security forces routinely participate in LE shoots. I've shot with them at he VT Police Academy LE shoot, Sig Academy (Adam was AF SF and his wife is OSI)and Hanscom Air Base in Mass host police shoots and allow us to train there. Some individual units allow their instructors to go to outside schools and bring back those skills.


DPR
 
Posts: 425 | Registered: March 10, 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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My daughter just finished Army Basic at Fort Sill. She trained with live rounds on an M16A2, a 556 SAW, and live grenade. But I was suprised it didn't include any handguns. I was assuming she would get trained on the M9. But she did receive her rifle medal qual from her basic training Artillary Brigade, it looks sharp pinned on her PFC uniform. I was very impressed how those Drill Sergeants transformed those young people into respectful and confident partiots and soldiers, after having spent two days with them and our daughter during family day and graduation. Very impressive indeed.




Lover of the US Constitution
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Posts: 6373 | Location: Nowhere the constitution is not honored | Registered: February 01, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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