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Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeinNC:
The M9 had a lifespan of 5000 rounds before it was expected to be worn out ....


In 1993 I had the opportunity to attend a transition class for Army CID agents who were just then being issued the M11 to replace the S&W model 10 revolvers that had been the issued weapon for years. The instructor mentioned that the M11 (aka SIG P228) also had an expected service life of 5000 rounds. When I reported that comment later here, it caused no little consternation among some members.

In fact, of course, the guns can be reasonably expected to last far longer than that. I’ve always wondered since whether such short specified service lifetimes for military weapons were a procurement game for some reason.




“The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.”
— Bertrand Russell
 
Posts: 42665 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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This highlights one of my favorite points. Who cares the most about service life? The people who buy these guns by the hundreds of millions of dollars and have them in service for generations. Who specifies absolutely ridiculous service life in the procurement? The very same people at DOD. But even worse some guns fail to meet that ridiculous bar. In the 1984 test for the eventual Beretta win, the S&W didn't make it to 5K rounds. The people who should be giving us good data of lifespan, simply don't care. Why I have no idea. The DOD performance standards on life are pass/fail, it is not as was said above "worn out", that's simply not in the spec nor is it accurate to say "The M9 had a lifespan of 5000 rounds before it was expected to be worn out". The actual spec was a minimum life. What is really good about the Beretta is that due to the locking block issue the Army did fire lots of guns to ultimate failure and you can learn a lot about that specific gun and when it fails. The 320 not so far.


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 9031 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
I’ve always wondered since whether such short specified service lifetimes for military weapons were a procurement game for some reason.

That certainly would not surprise me. If the actual useful lifespan of a military handgun stretched out beyond 100,000 rounds (roughly 3x what the contract "specifications" called for) and that tidbit was made widely known to the various congressional finance subcommittees, they'd be peeling away future moneys out of the small arms budgets faster than you can say 're-appropriated', probably to be "better spent" on WOKE propaganda projects (re-election is just around the corner, y'know...)


-MG
 
Posts: 425 | Location: The commie, rainy side of WA | Registered: April 19, 2020Reply With QuoteReport This Post
E tan e epi tas
Picture of cslinger
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quote:
I’ve always wondered since whether such short specified service lifetimes for military weapons were a procurement game for some reason.


Also keep in mind service life for a military weapon or a law enforcement weapon is typically far more grueling then an individual weapon.

We as individuals tend to both care for our weapons and put them through far less rigorous handling, weather, abuse etc. This in itself will lend to estimates of a much shorter life for true “service weapons”.


"Guns are tools. The only weapon ever created was man."
 
Posts: 5339 | Location: On the water | Registered: July 25, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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But of course that has nothing to do with the actual procurement testing. Which is done with submitted guns and no specific harsh circumstances. Assuming the OP meant wearing out versus corroding out in his question.
And based on what we know about the military using pistols overall usage is unlikely to be a real problem. cslinger you or I probably shoot more rounds in a month than a couple of battalions in active duty.


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 9031 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Depending on the owners age...

The answer “a lifetime” has varying levels of accuracy.

If you have the mean to wear out ANY item then 99% of the time you can afford a replacement.

If for some reason you cannot or one is no longer available then you as the owner have to decide how much usage your comfortable with as said usage will lead the item towards its retirement.





14 years to retirement! Just waiting!
 
Posts: 3576 | Location: Seoul | Registered: August 10, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
When you fall, I will be there to catch you -With love, the floor
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quote:
Everybody thinks groups like the FAMS have strict maintenance cycles.

Truth is, they shoot them till they break. Fix the problem, and keep shooting.



That's exactly what we did. Went into the armory repair shop and retrieved a new barrel. total time about five minutes.

This particular group shot once a month at the academy and many started for our informal league afterwards. The round count of their duty guns was significantly higher than most. In the case of the repaired handgun it was used by a FAM who was also a Sig instructor and a competitive shooter who at that time used his 357 Sig. If he wasn't shooting, he was dry firing or practicing magazine changes.


Richard Scalzo
Epping, NH

http://www.bigeastakitarescue.net
 
Posts: 5436 | Location: Epping, NH | Registered: October 16, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Behold my
Radiance!
Picture of Grayguns
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Hiya! In August 2014 I was tasked with developing the P320 for practical competition, proving the pistol in high-round-count use, and popularising the then-new pistol via a large team of high-volume shooters. Our 30-odd shooters fired an estimated 575,000 rounds through a total of 36 P320F-9's (with a number of these original early-generation guns seeing well over 50,000 rounds) during the two-year programme. I kept notes on breakages and failures, and will flatly state these things were stunningly reliable & durable. We just did not experience significant issues, and our shooters performed very well with them. Grayguns proudly sponsors several of these folks such as Yong Lee, who are still running their original pistols six years on. Incredible.

One of these pistols was subsequently used by a father & his teenage daughter; she put 97,000 rounds through it in less than two years of training and competition, before we got it back for service. We replaced the barrel (which exhibited substantial throat erosion), some springs, extractor, striker, and upgraded it to the current fire control standard. If's still going strong.

35,000 is nothing.

-Bruce




Designer and custom pistolsmith at Grayguns Inc. Privileged to be R&D consultant to the world's greatest maker of fine firearms: SIG SAUER

Visit us at http://opspectraining.com/product-cat/videos/ to order yours, and Thank You for making GGI the leader in custom SIG and HK pistolsmithing and high-grade components.

Bruce Gray, President
Grayguns Inc.
Grayguns.com / 888.585.4729
 
Posts: 9496 | Location: Spray, Reedsport, and Indianapolis | Registered: October 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thank you Bruce, very helpful as usual!!!
 
Posts: 451 | Registered: November 09, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of HayesGreener
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In perspective for a service pistol, in my department we presumed the service life span of an individual officer's pistol was 15 years. With our training program I figured the officer generously would fire 2500 rounds in initial training in the academy and initial stages of in service, then about 500 rounds per year for in service and qualifications. The total worked out to about 10k rounds. Some fired more, some less, but this is a pretty good ballpark. SWAT guys and instructors shot a lot more. I doubt that many departments can exceed or even approach this round count given current costs of ammo and training time. Based on Bruce's information above, an officer would have to really work at it to wear out his pistol during his career.


CMSGT USAF (Retired)
Chief of Police (Retired)
Florida Class K Licensed Instructor
NRA Certified LE Handgun/Shotgun/Rifle Instructor
SIG and Glock and Springfield 1911 Armorer
 
Posts: 3474 | Location: Florida Panhandle | Registered: September 27, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I certainly would've guessed that a P320 will last just as long as a Glock would. I would even say that it would last longer than a classic P-SIG would. Steel on steel (rail points) should be better longevity than steel on aluminum alloy, I'd think.


-MG
 
Posts: 425 | Location: The commie, rainy side of WA | Registered: April 19, 2020Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of RedV
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One reason I switched over to the 320, besides the Wilson Combat edition, was the expansion that Sig is making and the positions that they are advertising, no doubt from the big GOV contracts they are getting. They are gonna be in business with this thing for a long time and there are gonna be parts/support and aftermarket editions readily available across the nation. If it takes off overseas then you are looking at the new Beretta/P226/Glock. Time will tell. I always invest in an extra barrel and parts kit with my pistols, if possible, anyway.


“I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.” -J.R.R. Tolkien, The Two Towers.
 
Posts: 5 | Location: Gulf Coast Region  | Registered: October 10, 2020Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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You do know that Sig has a pretty reliable history of dropping support of things pretty darn early in the life of a product? At least in my view of the life of the product. Now the fact we have the DOD contract probably helps that, but that won't make a difference if what you bought is not exactly that, or they make a running change to deal with an issue, or they are short on spares or whatever. Get all the spares you need in advance when available. just one personal experience driven by a long, long history with SIG.


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 9031 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by 220-9er:
The price of the ammo will far exceed the price of the gun.


especially nowadays -- yikes

but to answer the question -- thousands and thousands of rounds easily under normal usage

and one thing i have come to agree with after watching many 'torture test' videos ... the conditions you shoot the gun under will definitely matter.

specifically -- heat kills components. that's why an AR that might realistically last tens and tens of thousands of round under 'normal' usage will basically melt in your hands if you do 15 consecutive 'mag dumps' (only a few hundred rounds)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cr9e3N6HEw

bottom line -- take care of your gear and it will last a very long time under 'normal' wear and tear

--------------------------------------


Proverbs 27:17 - As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
 
Posts: 8136 | Location: Florida | Registered: September 20, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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