SIGforum.com    Main Page  Hop To Forum Categories  Ammunition    Problem With Carry Ammunition for SIG P245 -- Latest Update in Seventh Post

Moderators: LDD, parabellum
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
Problem With Carry Ammunition for SIG P245 -- Latest Update in Seventh Post Login/Join 
On the DL
Picture of V-Tail
posted
Not sure whether to post this in the ammunition section, or the pistols section, let's try it here in ammunition.

I have a P245 that I bought used, from a forum member. When I got the pistol, the trigger was horrible. Compared to my P228 and P239, the trigger was so heavy that I had trouble holding the pistol on target; I was all over the paper.

I sent the pistol to a very respected gunsmith / armorer gentleman, well-known to the forum folks. He did a fast turn-around for me and I was, and still am, very pleased with his work. The trigger is much smoother, noticeable lighter, and the pistol is much easier to control.

Over the course of several range trips I fired a few hundred rounds. The pistol was 100% reliable, both before and after the trigger work. All of the ammunition used was Federal 230 gr FMJ -- the 100 round value pack, picked up at the local Walmart. Never a problem.

Having fired a bunch, I decided that the P245 was reliable, and I was comfortable enough with it to start carrying it. I thought I should carry a "better" quality ammunition, so I ordered some Speer Gold Dot JHP, 230 gr. And that's when the trouble began.

Consistently, the last round in each magazine fails to chamber properly. Only the last round. It tries to feed nose-high and does not chamber. Looking at the cartridge, I can see where the lip of the case, at the top, is scraping against the top of the barrel opening. This happens in every magazine that I have tried, both P245 magazines and P220 compact magazines, so it's pretty clear that it's not a magazine problem. The last-round feed problem is consistent with the Speer JHP, the cheap(er) Federal FMJ range stuff is 100% reliable.

ArtieS was at the range with me last time this happened. His suggestion: in the event that I have to use the pistol, make sure that I "take care of business" with the first n - 1 rounds, so that I won't need the last one.

Questions:
  1. Has anybody with a P245 seen a similar problem?

  2. Any suggestions for curing this problem?

  3. Recommendations for carry ammunition, if I can not get the Speer JHP to work reliably? I prefer 230 gr, standard velocity, not +P. I seem to shoot better with a heavier, slower traveling bullet.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: V-Tail,



A mind is a terrible thing.
 
Posts: 17753 | Location: Central Florida (near Orlando) | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
A Grateful American
Picture of sigmonkey
posted Hide Post
I use Winchester Ranger 230gr (RA45T) in my 245s.

Have never had any problems with it.




"the meaning of life, is to give life meaning" I could explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
 
Posts: 37480 | Location: fl | Registered: December 20, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Uppity Helot
posted Hide Post
I would just not shoot the Speer 230gr. GDHP in that pistol. They seem incompatible. Sometimes this happens when certain guns and ammo are paired, even high quality guns and ammo.

Try the Federal 230gr. HST. Or the Winhecter Ranger 230gr. JHP.Probably one or the other will work.
 
Posts: 1545 | Location: Manheim, PA | Registered: September 04, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
posted Hide Post
Not that I would suggest that anyone try a fix himself because of the possibility of unintended consequences, but years ago when I had similar problems (based on what I understand you to be saying), I lightly broke and polished the transition ridge at the top of the “feed” or chambering ramp. That allowed the cartridge to roll over the top of the ramp and into the chamber without its entering at too steep of an upward angle and jamming against the top of the chamber.

The P245 is an older model and perhaps the barrel wasn’t configured for later hollow point designs.




“I can’t give you brains, but I can give you a diploma.”
— The Wizard of Oz
 
Posts: 38009 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
A Grateful American
Picture of sigmonkey
posted Hide Post
You may have a very valid point.

My EDC is one of the "Dan's Ammo" P245s, and they were pretty much the last P245s put together.

I might need to pull all of mine out and compare the chamber and ramps and see if there is any difference (that can be seen).

I use the Compact mags with the dimples and that is about all the information I could offer.




"the meaning of life, is to give life meaning" I could explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
 
Posts: 37480 | Location: fl | Registered: December 20, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
On the DL
Picture of V-Tail
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sigmonkey:
You may have a very valid point.

My EDC is one of the "Dan's Ammo" P245s, and they were pretty much the last P245s put together.

I might need to pull all of mine out and compare the chamber and ramps and see if there is any difference (that can be seen).

I use the Compact mags with the dimples and that is about all the information I could offer.
I tried with both types of magazines -- P245, and P220 Compact. A few of each type. Same behavior with all the magazines that I tried.

Weird thing, it is only the last round in the magazine that does this. The first n - 1 rounds feed and chamber just fine. Clarification: when I say "last round," I mean the first one that is loaded into the magazine, the last one to be fired.

I might try an experiment next time I'm at the range: First round loaded into the magazine (first in, last out) a "cheap" Federal FMJ range ammo round, then top off the rest of the magazine with the Speer JHP.

Monkey, please let us know what you see, when you compare all your P245 barrels. I could do a comparison with mine, but I have a total sample size of one.

If that turns out to be something "interesting," I'll mention it to the armorer who did the work on my pistol. If it's a valid point, I bet he'll give me a real quick turnaround on it.



A mind is a terrible thing.
 
Posts: 17753 | Location: Central Florida (near Orlando) | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
On the DL
Picture of V-Tail
posted Hide Post
UPDATE: I went to the range yesterday to try to confirm a couple of theories that I had, regarding this problem.

The failure to chamber the bottom round of Speer JHP, bottom round being the round that sits directly on the magazine follower, was a consistent problem last week. It happened 100% of the time. It happened with every magazine.

I tried it again yesterday, fired numerous rounds, using both a P245 magazine and a P220 Compact magazine. I was not able to reproduce the failure. Not even once. The pistol functioned perfectly, with three different kinds of ammunition: Federal FMJ range stuff (I expected this to work), and two different brands of much more expensive JHP, including the Speer the had failed consistently last week.

I have no idea why it failed regularly last week, and worked 100% fine yesterday. I did not clean / lubricate it between the two sessions, just put it in my range bag. Maybe it works better when it's dirty? Now, not having found a specific cause for the problem, I have no idea whether or not it's a good idea to carry this with JHP ammunition.

Signed,
-- befuddled



A mind is a terrible thing.
 
Posts: 17753 | Location: Central Florida (near Orlando) | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
That is my spot.
posted Hide Post
I don't see where you mentioned how many rounds of JHP you fired or bought on the first trip or the last. Just wondering if they were from different production runs and the first ones had OALs JUST different enough to be a problem. (As in they were longer or shorter and that difference was enough to cause a problem compared to the rounds you shot the last time with no flaws?)

Reading over that, I don't know of a better way to put it but I think you get the point....


****
"And those who govern ought not to be lovers of the task? For, if they are, there will be rival lovers, and they will fight."
 
Posts: 1881 | Location: Rural Tallahassee, FL | Registered: October 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Ryanp225
posted Hide Post
Maybe you had a piece of gunk in there preventing the barrel from tilting all the way back or something similar.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You can do it your own way, if it's done just how I say."
 
Posts: 6977 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 04, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
On the DL
Picture of V-Tail
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by BigNC:
I don't see where you mentioned how many rounds of JHP you fired or bought on the first trip or the last. Just wondering if they were from different production runs and the first ones had OALs JUST different enough to be a problem. (As in they were longer or shorter and that difference was enough to cause a problem compared to the rounds you shot the last time with no flaws?)

Reading over that, I don't know of a better way to put it but I think you get the point....
That's a possibility. When I decided to try JHP for carry, as opposed to the FMJ-RN range stuff that I had been using, I included two boxes, 50 rounds ea., of the Speer GD in an order that I placed with targetSports. The failures were all from the first box that I tried. I used all of it, then the successes were from the second box. Next time I am at the location where I keep the ammunition, I'll look at the boxes and see if there's a batch code.

Ryan's comment is also a possibility, but if that was the problem, it cleared out by itself, as I did not clean the pistol, nor did I do any sort of maintenance between the first "failure" day and the second "success" day. So, if that was the problem, it was self-curing. Maybe the pistol just likes to be dirty. Wink



A mind is a terrible thing.
 
Posts: 17753 | Location: Central Florida (near Orlando) | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
That is my spot.
posted Hide Post
Hopefully it was just something weird and you are good to go from now on. I hate malfunctions like this- I get in my brain and stir things around and have to start over with the function checking. It'd be simpler for me if the thing was just broken- fix part, check function, proceed.

Maybe there was just one place that hadn't had lube spread, had some debris, etc. I believe you'd say a gremln....


****
"And those who govern ought not to be lovers of the task? For, if they are, there will be rival lovers, and they will fight."
 
Posts: 1881 | Location: Rural Tallahassee, FL | Registered: October 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Unknown
Stuntman
Picture of bionic218
posted Hide Post
V-Tail, I had a similar issue with mine - a well loved example bought from the classifieds here from a good member.

That same member suggested changing the recoil spring when he sold it to me. I ordered one, if for no other reason, than an easy and cheap way to maintain the gun.

Before it arrived I had a couple instances similar to your issue, I found the rounded FMJ rounds went in perfectly, but the more blunted HP rounds would have trouble. And it was just like yours, the last round only.

Also, like yours, it was an intermittent failure, as sometimes it would work just fine. Like you, I also tried a different magazine, and it would work great one time and fail the next. (I also have a mix of 245 and 220C mags).

Once it arrived and I had both springs laid out on the bench, I realized the new spring was almost 1/2" longer - unsprung - than the old unit. As they were both factory Sig parts, I can only assume the previous spring had sacked out that much in its lifespan.

In my non-engineering, seat of the pants, humble opinion, the failures were caused by the spring. The last round in the magazine is the only round that does not have the full support of other rounds under it. The weakened spring allows the slide to move back too quickly over the top of the last cartridge - maybe causing it to tip up overly high. Then, the weakened spring pushes the slide back too slowly, allowing the blunted tip of the HP ammo to hang up on any little obstruction on its way to chambering.

What proof do I have? Very little. I don't have a slow-mo camera, or any scientific method applied. I also don't have the engineering education to prove my theory as to what was causing the failures. However, I do have the evidence that since I changed that spring - 200 rounds ago - that failure hasn't manifested since. It's no guarantee, but for $10-$12 and five minutes of your time, it might be worth a shot. I bought mine from Top Gun Supply, but Midway also shows it in stock as of this moment.

As an aside, and FYI pertinent to the sub-forum, I had my best ever group (10 yards off a sandbag - four out of six clover leafed) with Jamison 185 grain HP ammo. It's now what I'm carrying in mine every day.

Best of luck with yours.
 
Posts: 9943 | Location: missouri | Registered: October 18, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
On the DL
Picture of V-Tail
posted Hide Post
Bionic -- as I mentioned in the first post, the pistol had recently made a round trip to one of our well-known SIG armorers for action work.

I would be very surprised if he did not check all springs and replace as necessary, but I'll order a recoil spring anyway and look at this. It's a very inexpensive trouble-shooting step. Thanks for the suggestion.



A mind is a terrible thing.
 
Posts: 17753 | Location: Central Florida (near Orlando) | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Have you tried a full size 220 magazine? Maybe put a full size magazine spring in the 245 magazine. I bought a 245 used and it has been perfect so far.
 
Posts: 172 | Location: Baconton,GA. | Registered: April 01, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
On the DL
Picture of V-Tail
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by JD DRIVER:
Have you tried a full size 220 magazine? Maybe put a full size magazine spring in the 245 magazine. I bought a 245 used and it has been perfect so far.
Yup. Tried various magazines. The problem seems to be independent of the magazine.



A mind is a terrible thing.
 
Posts: 17753 | Location: Central Florida (near Orlando) | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
posted Hide Post
A couple of my thoughts and observations.

Unless the gunsmithing service I paid for specifically mentioned inspecting and replacing springs as necessary, I would not assume that that was included. “Checking” springs would be inexact at best without specialized instruments (and I can only guess what they might be). Brownells used to have a discussion of how springs “take a set” shortly after they’re first compressed, and the fact that something like a used recoil spring is shorter than a new one may not demonstrate anything.

A trigger action job probably would not involve anything to do with a recoil spring, and many customers would object to seeing “Replaced recoil spring: $8.95” on an invoice if they weren’t expecting it: “Hell, I just installed a new spring before I sent it to you.”
If I had a question about the exact work that was done, I’d call and ask rather than assuming.

With a gun like the P245 and an unknown history of use, replacing the recoil spring is always a good first step. I replace my SIG recoil springs after 2500 rounds, but the recommended interval is every 3500-5000 rounds. The next thing that should be done with a Classic line pistol like the 245 with a two piece slide is to replace the roll pins holding the breechblock in place. That service is important to keep the breechblock firmly in place and to limit flexing of the frame that can lead to early failures. It’s recommended that the pins be replaced after every 5000 rounds. To reiterate, though, if we haven’t paid for that service, we shouldn’t expect that it was done.




“I can’t give you brains, but I can give you a diploma.”
— The Wizard of Oz
 
Posts: 38009 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
  Powered by Social Strata  
 

SIGforum.com    Main Page  Hop To Forum Categories  Ammunition    Problem With Carry Ammunition for SIG P245 -- Latest Update in Seventh Post

© SIGforum 2018