SIGforum
Why has .40 cal fallen out of favor?

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http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/410601935/m/8420055634

January 21, 2018, 01:02 PM
sjp
Why has .40 cal fallen out of favor?
I know this has been discussed, but what are some reasons that .40 has fallen out of favor? I carry a .40 DAK 229 at work but only have 1 .40 pistol at home.
January 21, 2018, 01:02 PM
FenderBender
FBI went back to 9.




Chances are high; you won't like what I've got to say.
January 21, 2018, 01:03 PM
BamaJeepster
It was never in favor with me - never had a .40! Smile



“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
- John Adams
January 21, 2018, 01:07 PM
RogueJSK
With modern defensive hollowpoints having similar effect on target among the two calibers, 9mm allows for less felt recoil, lower cost, and greater capacity.
January 21, 2018, 01:13 PM
sjp
Yep, did some reading and it boils down to

1. Price
2. Recoil
3. Capacity
4. Advances in 9mm

Sounds good to me, although I'll be keeping ny 229 in 40
January 21, 2018, 01:15 PM
sigfreund
Fads.




“Most men … can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it … would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions … which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives.”
— Leo Tolstoy
January 21, 2018, 01:17 PM
PowerSurge
quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
Fads.


That would only be true if 9mm ballistics had not improved over the last 25 years.


————————————-
Those who can, do. Those who can’t, manage.
January 21, 2018, 01:23 PM
tatortodd
Snowflakes can't handle it Big Grin

In all seriousness, I'm a .40 guy because I got into guns when .40 was taking off and every agency was switching which meant everybody interested in SD followed the wave. The leaps made in hollow-point technology have been astounding and the extra 9mm bullets are worth more than any minuscule advantage of the .40.



Ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity

DISCLAIMER: These are the author's own personal views and do not represent the views of the author's employer.
January 21, 2018, 03:49 PM
henryarnaud
quote:
Originally posted by RogueJSK:
With modern defensive hollowpoints having similar effect on target among the two calibers, 9mm allows for less felt recoil, lower cost, and greater capacity.


Pretty much this.

In the real world, they perform about the same.

I read about a test done on pig carcasses. Nobody could tell the difference between the 9mm and .40S&W wound tracks.



"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts." Sherlock Holmes
January 21, 2018, 06:02 PM
tuumunz
I know of several le dept.'s in washington and oregon have gone back to 9mm for the 4 or 5 reasons stated.

Although i will say one of the softest shooting guns i have shot was a hk usp 40.I dont know why,but i could shoot that gun like a 9mm.

When ruger starts producing there pc 40 carbine,i will get a 40 for my bedside gun.I already have the 9mm i the ruger,and it is sweet.
January 21, 2018, 08:44 PM
arcwelder
.40 was never good. It was a compromise from the beginning. It has been surpassed by all of the calibers it meant to supplant.


Arc.
______________________________

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Rode hard, put away wet. RIP JHM

"You're a junkyard dog." - Lupe Flores. RIP

January 22, 2018, 11:35 AM
tuumunz
Arc,you are 100% right.If you follow the history of the 40 since the fbi shootout in miami,you can see the many posts about 40 cal.

Then the 9mm guys went to school,and now the 9mm is top dog again.

I will always be a shot placement is important kind of guy,I had to have another neck fusion on a vertebra,and am seriously talking about a 22 mg ftx in a kel tec pmr.

I know it's not the best,but i know a 22 mag to the face at 10 feet is deadly also,if put into any area in the head.
January 22, 2018, 11:36 AM
tuumunz
quote:
Originally posted by tuumunz:
I know of several le dept.'s in washington and oregon have gone back to 9mm for the 4 or 5 reasons stated.

Although i will say one of the softest shooting guns i have shot was a hk usp 40.I dont know why,but i could shoot that gun like a 9mm.

When ruger starts producing there pc 40 carbine,i will get a 40 for my bedside gun.I already have the 9mm in the ruger,and it is sweet.

January 22, 2018, 01:49 PM
flashguy
I thought the .40S&W just came about because the 10mm proved too recoil-prone for delicate FBI shooters to control. Its shorter size also permitted using it in smaller pistols. It suffered the dual disadvantages of being larger than the 9mm and less powerful than the .45ACP--it was, at best, a compromise.

flashguy




Texan by choice, not accident of birth

When they ask me, "Paper or plastic?" I just say, "Doesn't matter to me. I am bi-sacksual."
January 22, 2018, 07:54 PM
dsiets
quote:
Originally posted by sjp:
Yep, did some reading and it boils down to

1. Price
2. Recoil
3. Capacity
4. Advances in 9mm

Sounds good to me, although I'll be keeping ny 229 in 40


Could someone explain to me #4?
I'm not singling out sjp, but I hear this more and more about 9mm "advancement."
What is it about 9mm advancement that isn't being seen in .380,.38,.357 mag/sig, .40, and .45?
I'm guessing no one would recommend the older 9mm loads. But the "9mm advancement" theory seems to indicate ignoring all other caliber loads too because they in turn have not "advanced" in technology.
What am I missing?

ETA:
And just to explain why #4, to me, is the only one that matters,
1. Price (Yeah, millions of round being bought by gov. Not a problem for me)
2. Recoil (I don't mind it. Some in gov. might.)
3. Capacity (I don't consider 15 vs 17 rounds that big of a deal.)
These are all gov. issues.
Which leaves us w/ the all important potency of this (only) 9mm round.
January 22, 2018, 08:00 PM
Badkarma 1
Nice thing about it falling out somewhat is .40 cal pistols and ammo are getting dirt cheap!
Just picked up a nice P229 for $400!
Thanks 9mm fans!


POW/MIA: You are Not Forgotten
January 22, 2018, 08:50 PM
henryarnaud
quote:
Originally posted by dsiets:
quote:
Originally posted by sjp:
Yep, did some reading and it boils down to

1. Price
2. Recoil
3. Capacity
4. Advances in 9mm

Sounds good to me, although I'll be keeping ny 229 in 40


Could someone explain to me #4?
I'm not singling out sjp, but I hear this more and more about 9mm "advancement."
What is it about 9mm advancement that isn't being seen in .380,.38,.357 mag/sig, .40, and .45?
I'm guessing no one would recommend the older 9mm loads. But the "9mm advancement" theory seems to indicate ignoring all other caliber loads too because they in turn have not "advanced" in technology.
What am I missing?

ETA:
And just to explain why #4, to me, is the only one that matters,
1. Price (Yeah, millions of round being bought by gov. Not a problem for me)
2. Recoil (I don't mind it. Some in gov. might.)
3. Capacity (I don't consider 15 vs 17 rounds that big of a deal.)
These are all gov. issues.
Which leaves us w/ the all important potency of this (only) 9mm round.


Advances in JHP design, like Gold Dots and HST, have improved the performance of all rounds, but 9mm got the biggest boost in improvement. Modern JHP loads in service calibers all perform pretty much the same. Any theoretical differences in performance are insignificant in application.

While older 9mm rounds wouldn't be my first choice, I would consider ones with good track records, like the Federal 115gr 9BPLE +P+, acceptable if I couldn't get HST or Gold Dot.



"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts." Sherlock Holmes
January 22, 2018, 09:56 PM
dsiets
quote:
Advances in JHP design, like Gold Dots and HST, have improved the performance of all rounds, but 9mm got the biggest boost in improvement.

I guess I'm just curious as to why that is.
Generally, newer cartridges like .40 and .357 sig shouldn't suffer like older designs in modern guns.
I use Gold dots and HST in my .40's and .357 sig.
Have we reached the culmination of these designs and thats how they will forever be? Or is more developement coming for the other calibers?
Or is this dependent on .gov and it's requirements?
Why bother developing better .40 when big brother wants to buy 9mm.
January 22, 2018, 11:22 PM
sns3guppy
The terminal effects of the various service cartridges are quite similar, as is the muzzle energy; there really isn't much difference.

While there have been some improvements in 9X19 technology, they're not quantum leaps by any means, and velocity and bullet weight hasn't changed much; shot effectiveness is all about placement, not nearly so much about expansion, etc. In fact, penetration is more important.

9X19 has improved; the same technology and the same powders and the same bullets and bullet designs that have advanced 9X19 have also advanced .40 and .45 acp. 9X19 has not somehow leapt ahead in advancements the other cartridges do not see; they've all been developed, and when a new design comes out, it comes out in all the chamberings.

9X19 offers higher capacity, reduced recoil, reduced time between shots, lighter weight, smaller frames, etc. The advantage over .40 in those areas is small; most pistols use the same size frame for 9mm and .40. They're the same weight. .40 capacity is a few rounds less, but typically only 2-3 less. Recoil is greater with the .40, but not appreciably so; with lighter frames, however, the recoil is accented.

I own a number of .40 pistols. Some carry .357 Sig barrels right now, and I do prefer the .357 Sig, but it's very hard to argue against the merits of 9X19.

.40 was available when 9mm couldn't hardly be found. It's not much more expensive than 9mm. It feeds reliably, and has a good track record in shootings.

There's the visceral satisfaction of seeing a 9mm shell casing disappear inside a .40 casing. Doesn't mean a lot, but at a minimum the .40 makes me feel like I'm shooting something extra. Not much, but it's a warm-fuzzy all the same.

Others noted, there are numerous surplus .40 handguns presently that make it a great choice, and many of those can also be run on 9mm, too. It's versatile, and a lot of the .40 pistols out there can easily be converted with little expense or trouble to .357 Sig, offering more again.
January 23, 2018, 08:52 AM
Sig209
quote:
Originally posted by RogueJSK:
With modern defensive hollowpoints having similar effect on target among the two calibers, 9mm allows for less felt recoil, lower cost, and greater capacity.


This is it very succintly.

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Proverbs 27:17 - As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.