ok i would like to know what you guys thing of running +P+ in your handguns. doing some reading i have come across somewhere that +P+ rounds are loaded to the max and running them in certin guns can cause hell. i have heard something about the hot loads wearing your barrel out faster. i would like to run them in my 9mm for more power. what caliber is equivalent to 9mm +P+? just woundering what you guys think

Bullets work because burning gunpowder creates pressure in the chamber that pushes the bullet out the barrel. All US ammunition has a designated amount of pressure a given load produces to push out that bullet to xx velocity in a test barrel. So for example standard 9mm is regulated to produce less than 37400 pounds per square inch of pressure (please excuse me if I'm mistaken on exact numbers). +P is another "standard" whereas the same cartridge is allowed upto 38500 PSI.

The problem with +P+ or, +P++, or +P++++ (you get the drift), is that there is no established criteria for what amount of pressure that represents. One manufacturer's +p+ ammo might be equivilent to another's +P++++ (exagerating the pluses here).

A pistol is generally designed with a certain pressure expectation of loads that it will shoot and still be relatively durable. Just because you can shoot +P++++++ in your pistol a few times, does not mean that it will last very long because its workings were built around the idea that it will normally only be fired with regular pressure ammunition (I don't know what pistol you have).

In a pistol, you are not really going to wear out the barrel any faster with +P+ ammunition. What you will be wearing out faster is all the moving parts. More pressure, means faster bullets which means more recoil, and that recoil battering is what really wears outa pistol.

what caliber is equivalent to 9mm +P+?

There is no "caliber" equivilent. Caliber and pressure are not the same thing. Every caliber (e.g. 45 auto, 9mm, .357 Sig) can be loaded to pressures that will instantly destroy most any pistol. It has nothing to do with pressure which is what the "+P and the +'s" stand for.

In terms of using them for more "power" as you put it. Assuming you own a Sig, it would be no problem, however keep in mind that a steady diet of higher pressure rounds comes at a life longevity cost of the pistol. While more power is not a bad thing, bullet design is as important as "power" from higher pressure velocity. Shooting ball ammo at +P++++++ pressures, would still result in poor terminal effects. One needs to match their bullets for an expected terminal velocity which is what the better hollowpoint designs do.

That being said, read some of the many posts to gleen an idea of brands, cartridge/pressures, and bullets designs that have proven themselves in any given caliber round.

quote:

Originally posted by kitkat:
ok i would like to know what you guys thing of running +P+ in your handguns. doing some reading i have come across somewhere that +P+ rounds are loaded to the max and running them in certin guns can cause hell. i have heard something about the hot loads wearing your barrel out faster. i would like to run them in my 9mm for more power. what caliber is equivalent to 9mm +P+? just woundering what you guys think

Xer0's response was excellent. Let me just add a few points...
SAAMI sets the pressure limits for conventional small arms ammo. For older calibers that have survived and now have modern guns to chamber them, they may specify a higher limit as +P with the precaution to use them in guns that can handle the higher pressure. SAAMI does not provide a +P+ rating. When ammo manufacturers say that their ammo is +P+, they're implying that their ammo may achieve velocities higher than +P at the possible expense of higher pressures. However, this may not be true because, as I've said, there's no +P+ standard that they have to meet. If however, +P+ ammo actually does travel faster than standard or +P ammo, then it may wear out your barrel faster because of the velocity of the bullet traveling down the barrel and not because of the increased pressure per se. If you can find 124g 9mm +P+ ammo with a muzzle velocity of 1350fps, then 125g 357 Sig would be the equivalent.

I use +P+ with confidence in my G19, two G26s, P239, P229 and HK USPf 9. I do not believe for one minute that just because SAAMI has not set a pressure level that Remington, Winchester or Federal are going to load their 9mm +P+ to 454 Casull pressure levels. The Glock Armorers manual specifically okayed use of +P+ as does my USP owners manual. SIG does not okay it but my 239 and 229 are still functioning just fine.

I often carry +P+ ammo in those new pistols commonly used by police. Its been checked out for functioning and accuracy. It is probably the best SD ammo you can buy. I don't shoot it in older pistols like my Walther P1. It isn't range ammo as I practice with reloads or less expensive ball ammo.

Shooting +P+ ammo is not going to damage a gun if done a couple times for testing but would be too hard on the hardware to shoot it all the time.

Just keep in mind that shooting +P+ may void a handgun manufacturer's warranty.

+P+ ammo is teh c00lnezz!!!!!

Seriously:

Look at bullet type before you look at anything else. The general consensus is the Speer Gold Dot and the Winchester Ranger SXT.

Assuming cartridge quality and bullet type are at a premium, faster is generally better. So, from a tactical perspective, +P+ is the way to go, every single time. After that comes recoil, and if you can handle the standard cartridge, you can usually handle the hot load. 9mm +P+ still shoots nicer than standard .40SW ammo (at least in my opinion). An added benefit is that +P+ ammunition is usually only offered in the premium defensive lines from manufacturers, so you have an added quality assurance built into the round. Also note that American ammo manufacturers are very risk-averse when it comes to loading cartridges; you're not likely to blow up your gun with factory ammo unless there is another problem (damaged cartridge, crappy firearm, etc).

+P+ ammo is a bit harder on your gun but not so much that you will notice any serious advanced wear if you shoot it ten or twenty percent of the time. Given the fact that you can rarely find hot ammo except in premium defensive loadings, this is a likely scenario anyway. Even if you shot exclusively +P+ ammunition, moving up your major maintenence intervals (ie, replacing your springs every 3,000-4,000 rounds as opposed to every 5,000-7,000 rounds) will negate the majority of the issues that crop up. Spring kits are cheap, maybe twenty dollars. The recoil spring, which takes most of the abuse, is a $10 part that can be switched out as part of a normal cleaning operation.

Your barrel will likely wear out a little faster, but we're talking a difference of a a couple thousand rounds over a service life of 20,000-30,000 rounds fired. Most handguns will not see this amount of ammunition through them in a lifetime of shooting. Even if you're one of those guys like me who would prefer to put a hundred rounds a week downrange, it will take you six years before you would be at the replace the barrel point, and you're talking about moving up the service interval on that part by six months tops for shooting +P+ ammunition. Woot.

+p is a 15% pressure overload from standard SAAMI Specs. +p+ is a 30% overload. +p+ is normally ony sold to police or Govt agencies as the agencies sign a hold harmless agreement with the manufacturerand it is marked "for law enforcement use only" but there is no law against having it that I know. However there is some floating around if you look. The first +p+ ammo I think was winchester 110gr 38spl and the federal 110gr 38spl both with JHP's. Our Sheriffs Dept won't issue it to officers with S&W 9mm autos but will to Sigs as they had failures of the weapons with the Smiths.

Another point is you get much accelerated throat erosion from these rounds.
I only keep them for my 38's

quote:

Originally posted by kitkat:
ok i would like to know what you guys thing of running +P+ in your handguns. doing some reading i have come across somewhere that +P+ rounds are loaded to the max and running them in certin guns can cause hell. i have heard something about the hot loads wearing your barrel out faster. i would like to run them in my 9mm for more power. what caliber is equivalent to 9mm +P+? just woundering what you guys think

It is equivilent to a 9mm, a fast 9mm

I have posted it before, just because a round is +p or +p+, does not automaticly mean it will fly faster, just that the chamber pressure will be higher. Prime example is the Speer GoldDot Short Barrel line. Much of that entire line is +p rated, but the rounds have a slower velocity than their standard loadings. Other adjuncts to smokeless powder can increase chamber pressure without adding to velocity, anti-flash additive come to mind.

The Idea of raising the pressure is to squeeze more velocity out of the bullet. From Winchester Law Enforcement Web Site
9mm+p 124gr JHP Muzzle 1180fps
9mm+p+ 127gr JHP Muzzle 1250fps

The Gold dot SB ammo is for and tested with 2" barrels Standard Gold Dot ammo is tested with 4 or 6" test barrels with 2" of barrel missing of course it will be slower it's like comparing a rifle and a pistol against each other and expecting them to come out equal.

Yes GoldDot short barrel will go slower out of the short barrel. My point was that +p does not automaticly mean more velocity. You can raise chamber pressure without moving velocity much. Just because a round is +p rated does not mean it is faster, you need to check the rounds specs. Yes in most cases +p will be faster but I have seen more than one case where folks on the forum have chrono'ed +p loads and wondered why they felt hot but were not faster than some others.

Personally I always use +p loads, if the gun can handle them, in .38 special, but not always in 9mm. I am still unsure of carrying them in 45APC, but I am sure that the 200 grain +p GoldDot loading would give good results. Yes I tend to be a fast and light guy when it comes to ammo, although I am starting to see the usefullness of medium weight loads.

quote:

Originally posted by detroit192:
Just because a round is +p rated does not mean it is faster, you need to check the rounds specs.

Absolutely true.

quote:

Originally posted by armsmaster270:
+p+ is a 30% overload. +p+ is normally ony sold to police or Govt agencies as the agencies sign a hold harmless agreement with the manufacturerand it is marked "for law enforcement use only" but there is no law against having it that I know.

This is absolutely incorrect.


+P+ has no SAAMI specification. It's anything a manufacturer wants it to be and it's available to anyone who can legally purchase ammo.

As stated previously, higher pressure ammo will reduce the life of your pistol because it accelerates wear.

quote:

Originally posted by g26s239:
I do not believe for one minute that just because SAAMI has not set a pressure level that Remington, Winchester or Federal are going to load their 9mm +P+ to 454 Casull pressure levels.

That isn't the implication I think. You could, theoretically, load ammo to standard pressure levels and label it +P+ since there is no standard for +P+ INCLUDING no requirement that it be loaded hotter than standard or +P.

Manufacturers probably don't do that either because somebody will eventually put it on a chronograph and word will get around. The point is that there is no way to compare +P+ loads between each other just by labeling or advertising. You have to actually buy some and chronograph it.

An example would be the 9BPLE that I like so much. It's labeled +P+ and 20 years ago was probably really something. Today there are much hotter +P+ loads out there.

The other thing to consider is that velocity isn't the be-all and end-all. Some bullet designs don't do as well when pushed too fast. They can break up early and actually under-penetrate... or the HP can over-expand, peel back and function more like a FMJ.

quote:

Originally posted by armsmaster270:
+p is a 15% pressure overload from standard SAAMI Specs. +p+ is a 30% overload. +p+ is normally ony sold to police or Govt agencies as the agencies sign a hold harmless agreement with the manufacturerand it is marked "for law enforcement use only" but there is no law against having it that I know.

Ummm... no.

1. There IS no SAAMI standard for +P+.
2. There is +P+ on my local gun shops shelf and they sell it to anybody with $$$.

quote:

The Idea of raising the pressure is to squeeze more velocity out of the bullet. From Winchester Law Enforcement Web Site
9mm+p 124gr JHP Muzzle 1180fps
9mm+p+ 127gr JHP Muzzle 1250fps

I guess boxes stamped +P or +P+ seem so much more hooah, badass, tacticool, than if they read + speed... I routinely load 124 grain HP's/FMJ's at measured 1250-1270 fps from a Beretta M9 at less than max std pressures, let alone +P. Cast bullets are even more of an eye opener, and 125-129 grain lead bullets can EASILY be driven to 1200 fps using powder charge weights 20% below published max.

I've only used one 38spl round in a tactical situation it was a Federal+p+ 110gr JHP #38F-TD It went through outer clothing into the chest cavity heart, lower lobe of the lung and stopped just prior to exiting mushrooming to .612 on a micrometer. A picture is on my web page under Negrete

quote:

Originally posted by SIGnified:

quote:

Originally posted by armsmaster270:
+p+ is a 30% overload. +p+ is normally ony sold to police or Govt agencies as the agencies sign a hold harmless agreement with the manufacturerand it is marked "for law enforcement use only" but there is no law against having it that I know.

This is absolutely incorrect.


+P+ has no SAAMI specification. It's anything a manufacturer wants it to be and it's available to anyone who can legally purchase ammo.

As stated previously, higher pressure ammo will reduce the life of your pistol because it accelerates wear.

As far as the 15% over pressure I can onlty go by what Winchester & Federal tell me.

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/armsmaster270/pfront.jpg

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/armsmaster270/pback.jpg

quote:

Originally posted by armsmaster270:
+p+ is a 30% overload. +p+ is normally ony sold to police or Govt agencies as the agencies sign a hold harmless agreement with the manufacturerand it is marked "for law enforcement use only" but there is no law against having it that I know.

quote:

Originally posted by armsmaster270:

As far as the 15% over pressure I can onlty go by what Winchester & Federal tell me.

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/armsmaster270/pfront.jpg

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/armsmaster270/pback.jpg

So where does it state that +P+ is 30% more pressure above standard?

I was going on 15% for +P then +p+ 15% above that