quote:

Originally posted by 45 Cal:

Let me tell you a little embarrassing story,I shoot every week in basement,I get back upstairs in kitchen and reload the 1911 with factory win silver tips.This is a routeen I have done for years,Well a few month back I did as I usually do,Drop one in the pipe,let the hammer down to half cock and slam a full 8 round Wilson mag in the weapon. BAM ,shot my refrigerator. The round went thru four layers of steel and stopped in a five pound of corn meal
Bottom line ,just how much penetration do you want,thank goodness the meal finally stopped the slug cause there was a glass door on the other side.

This topic makes me wonder about the two rounds. Could you shoot that fridge again with some 357 sig so we can get some more comparison data?

quote:

Originally posted by Pale Horse:

quote:

Originally posted by 45 Cal:

Let me tell you a little embarrassing story,I shoot every week in basement,I get back upstairs in kitchen and reload the 1911 with factory win silver tips.This is a routeen I have done for years,Well a few month back I did as I usually do,Drop one in the pipe,let the hammer down to half cock and slam a full 8 round Wilson mag in the weapon. BAM ,shot my refrigerator. The round went thru four layers of steel and stopped in a five pound of corn meal
Bottom line ,just how much penetration do you want,thank goodness the meal finally stopped the slug cause there was a glass door on the other side.

This topic makes me wonder about the two rounds. Could you shoot that fridge again with some 357 sig so we can get some more comparison data?

Can't do that,don't own that caliber. I hope I never ,ever have another slam fire,one is enough in a life time.

quote:

Originally posted by 45 Cal:

quote:

Originally posted by Pale Horse:

quote:

Originally posted by 45 Cal:

Let me tell you a little embarrassing story,I shoot every week in basement,I get back upstairs in kitchen and reload the 1911 with factory win silver tips.This is a routeen I have done for years,Well a few month back I did as I usually do,Drop one in the pipe,let the hammer down to half cock and slam a full 8 round Wilson mag in the weapon. BAM ,shot my refrigerator. The round went thru four layers of steel and stopped in a five pound of corn meal
Bottom line ,just how much penetration do you want,thank goodness the meal finally stopped the slug cause there was a glass door on the other side.

This topic makes me wonder about the two rounds. Could you shoot that fridge again with some 357 sig so we can get some more comparison data?

Can't do that,don't own that caliber. I hope I never ,ever have another slam fire,one is enough in a life time.

Want for me to come over later? I only have GoldDots in 357SIG sorry no SilverTips so we could not do a true comparision. I can even bring over a fridge magnet/repair patch from my recent Yellowstone vacation.

Thanks Detroit,just what I need,more holes in the fridg,I was dang lucky I was standing on the side of it and not in front of it.

You were lucky, no beer was hurt.

An amateur re enactment (and not too shabbily done, either) of the terminal ballistics discussion from "My Cousin Vinny":

http://tinyurl.com/6b2rro

Perhaps more important than pants color, is whether the deah was terminated with a .45 ACP or a 357 Sig. That part was cut from the final film as being "too controversial"

For those of you old enuff to remember Evan Marshall, he did studies on one shot stops and found that the .357 Magnum had the highest percentage of one shot stops of any load then available, including the .45 ACP. The .357 SIG was designed to duplicate the ballistics of the older Magnum.

Incidentally, the .357 Magnum was just a few percentage points ahead of the .45. Frankly I don't think all this fluff amounts to a hill of beans. The real advantage of the .357 SIG is that as a bottleneck round, it probably has fewer feeding problems, if any, over any other self defense cartridge.

FederalI - Remember that ammo was loaded hotter in the old days, 1960 -early 70's. My old Winchester 240 44mag LWC and 158 357mag , old yellow box, sure kicks much harder than the new stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by federali:

The .357 SIG was designed to duplicate the ballistics of the older Magnum.

Too bad it doesn't really do that.

On Duplicating the .357 Magnum:
While the .357 Sig gets close to .357 Magnum ballistics, it does not have the same bullet shape. If you look at bullets used in the Magnums, you'll see they tend to have steep shoulders and a strong tendency to "bite" when they hit. No bullet that will feed in a semi-auto will tolerate that profile. (Cirillo's experiments being the exception)

On Intermediate Barriers:
The advantages of the .357 in vehicles are theoretical, and not found in real-life. LAPD's higher end units all carry the Federal Bonded +P 230 gr JHP and they have a lot of shootings involving cars. They find that bullets will enter cars and hit structures that no pistol bullet will penetrate - like the collision brace or a windo motor.

If a bullet hits the edge of one of these structures, it will "shear" and a portion of the bullet will continue into the car. Half of a 230 gr bullet is 115 gr and they've had significant injuries caused by these half bullets. Half of a 124 grain bullet is 62 grain - that's .380 territory and not nearly as impressive.

As a side note, that particular 45 load can expand to over 1" in real-world shootings. That expansion, combined with a +P thump has excellent street results.

quote:

Originally posted by Ogie:

quote:

Originally posted by federali:

The .357 SIG was designed to duplicate the ballistics of the older Magnum.

Too bad it doesn't really do that.

More accurately the 357SIG is meant to replicate the ballistics of the 125 grain semi jacketed hollow point fired from a 4 inch 357 Magnum. The 357SIG will never reach the realms of 158 grain 357 Magnum loads, which are better suited for hunting than self defense(IMHO). Especially when the 158 grain loads were shot from 6 inch or longer barrels. The 357SIG is a good compromise in a service weapon, but is not nearly as versatile as a 357 Magnum revolver.

As to intermediate barrier issues vs. a 230 grain plus P .45, as ajp3jeh stated:

quote:

LAPD's higher end units all carry the Federal Bonded +P 230 gr JHP...

Well for the "Higher End" Units that maybe fine, but for the Trooper/Highway Patrol Officer/S.O. deputy/etc. the larger capacity, easier to carry 357SIG service pistol maybe a better choice. I always felt that sheet metal barrier penetration was best left to long guns, but the ability and performance through automotive glass was a more important consideration in a handgun. It would seem to be bad tactics and policy to shoot a target you could not visually identify.

But once more in each of the "service" class calibers there is not much difference in performance, you do your job and the round should do its. Each has trade offs in "power", capacity, ease of handling, shootability, etc.

TX DPS had an incident where two troopers were shooting through a semi truck door at the same time at the same guy. One trooper had a P220 w 200/45 +P GD, the other a P226 w 125/357 GD. The 357s made it through the door, the 45 +Ps did not.

NM and TX DPS have 17 yrs (91 - 08) of real life, not theoretical, expereince w both, and they think the 357 is better.

I'm convinced there are more than enough theories, gel tests, and war stories from low and high end sources to put either on top of the other.

Either way, the 9 and 40 are still clearly more popular w city, county, state, and federal agencies than both of them.

Clearly, being "clearly superior" isn't clear enough.

quote:

TX DPS had an incident where two troopers were shooting through a semi truck door at the same time at the same guy. One trooper had a P220 w 200/45 +P GD, the other a P226 w 125/357 GD. The 357s made it through the door, the 45 +Ps did not.

I've heard of that incident and the fact that the .357 Sig made it in and the .45 did not. The problem is that NO handgun round will penetrate through window motors or the crash reinforcement bar. Whether a pistol bullet penetrates a car door depends on what it hits, not the particular bullet. I would be willing to bet a lot of money that if the two bullets had swapped locations, the .45 would have penetrated and the .357 Sig would not have.

If we wanted to counter anecdotes, I'd offer a shooting that happened the next county over. The officer fired two RA45TP's through the front windshield. The rounds went through the head rest, through the bad guy, and into the trunk. The BG was DRT and the 45's worked just fine.

The best information I have on the issues of vehicle penetration come from Scottie Reitz. Reitz just retired from LAPD after 27 years. During that time he was a member of their SWAT team and the trainer for their "Metro Division" which includes all of their high end units. Additionally, Reitz was LAPD's use of force expert witness and has seen literally EVERY LAPD shooting for over thirty years as well as shootings from other agencies.

My comments about bullets shearing come directly from Reitz and his experience shooting people in cars and his review of actual shootings that occurred in and around cars. The effectiveness of sheared 45's versus sheared 9mm's also come from real-world shootings.

As part of training conducted for the agency Reitz shot 2 cars a month for a number of years as well as conducting similar training in his private sector classes. This is a huge sample size and one I'm more comfortable drawing conclusions from than the isolated Texas event. All of these rounds fired into all of these vehicles support the idea that NO pistol round will punch through car doors 100% of the time. The only rounds that do make it through are .308's and 12 gauge slugs.

When it comes to windshields, whether the bullet is bonded or not will play the most important factor in its penetration. Non-bonded bullets tend to suffer from jacket separation. Once the jacket separates, both bullet and jacket travel erratically. Bonded bullets will deflect some but not nearly as much as non-bonded rounds.

I know what ya mean: switch who was shooting what from which angle, could have got a completely different result.

Why this continues to kick around over and over again... no matter how clear it seems to one side or the other.

TX and NM DPS think the 357 S&M beat the 45, CHP thinks the 40 beats the 357 Mag, so clearly the 40 is the superiorest of them all?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: BrokenArrow,

quote:

Originally posted by ogive40:
The .357 sig has its merits, but I think I nice big +P .45 230g HST still wins out for most non-barrier confrontations.

The edge always go to the larger diameter bullet.

I agree.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&u...o7cxFXVor2GeZXuRF2FQ

One HST expanded to 1.19"! I'm sre the .357 Sig is a very powerful round, but I'd prefer to punch silver dollar sized holes.

quote:

Originally posted by IndridCold:

quote:

I carry an 11mm eargesplitten loudenbooomer.

To shoot anything less means you are a sissy girl.

With the terminal ballistics of a tactical nuke, thats what I'm talkin about. 9mm is for sissy men and old ladies.

You all are babbies.....

I have a 57mm anti-tank gun.....

Caliber 57mm (2.244 in)
Length of tube 2970mm (117 in)
Traverse 90 degrees
Elevation -5 to +15 degrees
Weight traveling 1215 kg (6.28 lbs)
Muzzle Velocity 900 m/s (2700 ft/sec)
Shell Weight(AP) 2.83 kg (6.28 lbs)
Armor Penetration 2.7 inches at 1000 yards (20 degrees)
(Data from WW2 Fact Files “Anti-Tank Weapons by Chamberlin & Gander)

Now I just need to find a holster......

OK, here's photo.....

TD do you reload????

tankdriver, are you adopting by any chance?
That's a beautiful set up. Thanks for the pics.