Many argue that the modern 357 Sig (semi-auto friendly emulator of the champion .357 Magnum) is far superior to the venerable .45 in terminal ballistics.


Does this argument hold water?


WELL, in the October 2008 issue of Guns, Massad Ayoob reports that the 357 Sig Gold Dot fired into a Bullet Test Tube vs. a .45 230GR hollow point proves it.

Part of the test procedure is to fill the cavity created in the Bullet Test Tube wax with water and measure the volume before sectioning the wax to examine the pattern.

And the 357 Sig wound cavity displaced 3.7 ounces of water, more than TWICE that resulting from the .45 hollow point.


And there you have it.... Yes....


[vinnygambini]The argument that the 357 Sig is clearly superior to the .45ACP DOES HOLD WATER!!![/vinnygambini]

This was a ONE time, single shot? Do it a couple of hundred times and you might have some statistically relevant data that could stand on its own. One shot "doesn't hold water".

Superior, no, just as good, sure. What JHP were used? The std. vel. 230grJHP, HST, GD, RGS, in 45acp are good rounds. The 185gr RGs, WWSTHP & Fed. HS produce larger but shallower wounds. There is more to a fight stopper than temp. crush cavities though. I like & use both rounds. My P239 in 357sig is a hell of a shooter & making quick hits out to 25yds is almost as easy as my 1911OM in 45acp. Here is some data comparing wound volumes: http://demigodllc.com/~zak/firearms/fbi-pistol.php

This message has been edited. Last edited by: fredj338,

Oh no, not this again?

quote:

Originally posted by GrandPotter:
Oh no, not this again?

I feel the same way. Let see how About you shoot your right foot with a 357 sig and the other with a 45. then you will know for sure. Wont you?

No there you have it. One round, water displacement, massad ayoob, all things that are 100% irrefutable. Thats the definitive word. .45 is a weak under powered round that has no basis in history or modern day combat shooting. Here I am carrying a .45 on duty every day for three years. I have to swith over to a .357 sig because its better than a .45 in an arena of measurment used to determine the weight of boats...

quote:

Originally posted by IndridCold:
No there you have it. One round, water displacement, massad ayoob, all things that are 100% irrefutable. Thats the definitive word. .45 is a weak under powered round that has no basis in history or modern day combat shooting. Here I am carrying a .45 on duty every day for three years. I have to swith over to a .357 sig because its better than a .45 in an arena of measurment used to determine the weight of boats...

And if you are ever confronted with a bad guy wearing a test tube wax/water vest, you will be equipped with the superior round.

Well thanks a pant load Richard,just when I got good with all those rock islands, colts, lammas and kinber and X/D"s you have to go and make them all obselete. One water shot,I say your hero is full of water.

I would suggest you check out Storming Normans thread ,he did an excellent job on his test.

Oh, lighten up guys, I was trying for a cheap laugh with my impression of Joe Pesci in 'My Cousin Vinny".



Sheesh. I know, don't give up my day job.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: RichardC,

No, Massad Ayoob is wrrrrrrrooooooooooooooaaaaaaaaannnggggggg!!!!!!!

The 357 Sig is better at displacing water? Next time I need to displace water, I'll use my 357 Sig! Awesome!

Last year, a BG was shot 6 times in stomach area with 357 Sig GD. Lived. PD now switching
to 45acp GD.

quote:

Originally posted by 8th SPS USAF:
Last year, a BG was shot 6 times in stomach area with 357 Sig GD. Lived. PD now switching
to 45acp GD.

interesting, what dept was this and why did they place the shots low rather then COM?

quote:

Originally posted by 8th SPS USAF:
Last year, a BG was shot 6 times in stomach area with 357 Sig GD. Lived. PD now switching
to 45acp GD.

Even if this were a true story, a single incident means nothing, There have been BGs hit multiple times in the abdomen w/ rifle rounds, SG rounds, etc. & still survived their wounds.

Right before I left Camp Pendleton CA in 1985 there was a shooting at the base hospital. A patient ( read guy high on something) went nutz and started walking around with just his gown on slashing people with a disposable scalpel he found in a drawer in an exam room. MPs were called and first MP through the door had this guy come at him, all 6'4" of him. Covered in blood. At this time MPs were still carrying M1911A1s with mags loaded with 5 rounds. USMC SOP was (still is???) load 2 rounds less than max capacity. The guy that was high ( presumably on "angel dust") absorbed five rounds to the upper torso and still managed to cover the 20 or so feet to the MP. The MP dumped his empty mag and backed up while inserting another mag of five rounds when the guy finally dropped at his feet. So I guess anything is possible. Also this was 230 grain ball ammo.

Its been proven even if you have incredible marksmanship and put two rounds in a bad guys heart they still have enough blood and oxygen in their brain to be a threat for 8-10 more seconds. Combine that with medication, mental illness, or just being a stubborn ass and i can totally buy a guy soaking up 5 rounds of .45 and staying in action for some time. This all goes back to hand guns being ineffective fight stoppers .45 or otherwise.
With proper ammunition there is little or no difference in any of the modern day combat calibers no matter what massad ayoob or vincent laguardia (sp) gambini says. Wise man always say take a shotgun or carbine if you know you're going to get in a gun fight.
On a side note. Did Moses really part the red sea, or did he just dump a mag of .357 sig from his 226 into the water?

quote:

Originally posted by 8th SPS USAF:
Last year, a BG was shot 6 times in stomach area with 357 Sig GD. Lived. PD now switching
to 45acp GD.

It doesn't matter if someone is hit with .308, .357, .45 or .22.

If none of the bullets strike vital areas the person will live if they get med. attention.


Kevin

That's the key. Hitting the target, hitting COM and all the rest actually mean nothing... you have to actually hit something important. COM just makes it more likely, but it's no guarantee.

357sig is better at barrier pennetration vs the 45acp. 45acp has the advantage if shooting directly with no barriers (like car doors, etc). Test results:

TEST

quote:

Originally posted by Mrs_Esterhouse:
357sig is better at barrier pennetration vs the 45acp. 45acp has the advantage if shooting directly with no barriers (like car doors, etc). Test results:

TEST

Let me tell you a little embarrassing story,I shoot every week in basement,I get back upstairs in kitchen and reload the 1911 with factory win silver tips.This is a routeen I have done for years,Well a few month back I did as I usually do,Drop one in the pipe,let the hammer down to half cock and slam a full 8 round Wilson mag in the weapon. BAM ,shot my refrigerator. The round went thru four layers of steel and stopped in a five pound of corn meal
Bottom line ,just how much penetration do you want,thank goodness the meal finally stopped the slug cause there was a glass door on the other side.