I am a relatively new shooter and I am contemplating getting some real training on shooting.
I do have hopes on even competing one of these eons.
I am also looking to get my CCW permit.

I have a 9mm P226ST that I would like to use for the purpose of real target and hopefully beginning competition shooting; and my P228 for my CCW.

Going to the range, I have been shooting CCI Blazer aluminum 115g for obvious cost reasons.
I have Hornandy TAP 124 for my home defense round.

So, all that said, how much of an accuaracy difference would "quality" ammo provide over range plinking ammo, and what recommendations of "quality" ammo would you all recommend?

I searched the forum, but really didn't find these answers too clearly.
Thanks.

CCI Blazer, both AL and Brass are quality ammo as far as I am concerned. Some of the CCI Blazer ammo shoots to the same point of aim/point of impact as Speer GoldDot. Speer makes a line called Lawman than is meant to provide range ammo (non hollow point) that shoot the same as their GoldDot line. Blazer is also made by the same folks. I can not tell the difference between BlazerBrass .40S&W 180 grain load(available at many a WallyWorld) and the Lawman 180 grain load.

As a new shooter your ammo will out perform you for a while. Heck most ammo is still more accurate than I can ever hope to be. BTW I have been shooting mostly Georgia Arms and Ammo reloads in 357SIG of late, about 4K worth in past couple of years.

http://le.atk.com/ home of Federal and Speer

You difference in your handgun ammo isn't accutacy, it's bullet design,

You are paying for a round that is designed to stop more effectivly, and move (usually) faster delivering more energy to the target.

For most purposes you will be just fine practicing with the blazer. I would still shoot a box or two of your defensive ammo just to make sure.

Kevin

Kevin,

Thanks for the reply but I am not sure that you understood what I was looking for. if I was not clear, I apologize...
I was just looking for advice to if there is accuracy differences between regular plinking ammo and higher grade ammo (in 9 mm).
If there are differences, what those difference are and what folks would recommend for more competition/target type shooting.
Things like:
Brass vs Aluminum
115 vs 124 vs 147
Bullet design

Brass is better on the gun IMHO (aluminum oxide is quite hard; aluminum cleaning rods are known to damage barrels because aluminums exterior layer oxidizes and becomes very hard, and I rather not use aluminum cased ammunition because of this). 115gr vs 124gr vs 147gr is a function of the gun. My X-5 does best with 124gr hot loads, my P30 does best with 115gr, and the non-hot loads at that.

Everybody has his owned preferred bullet design I guess.

All things equal, the higher end ammo shoots better groups because of better finishing and greater consistency between rounds.

There is no one best ammo though, you have to find what is best for your gun. Detroit 192 found no difference between the Blazer Brass and Speer Lawman. My X-5 did quite well with Speer Lawman and was all over the board (I mean downright bad groups) with Blazer Brass. I'd chalk this up to the gun not going well with Blazer Brass.

I recommend that once you are good enough with the particular gun that you are very consistent, try the different self-defense ammos and find the one you and the gun shoot best with, then find the less-expensive, for-range-use that approximates the shooting characteristics of the ammo you are going to use for self-defense. With my X-5, there's about 5 clicks of difference in the sight elevation between Fiocchi hollow point 124gr and American Eagle 115gr, so if I carried Fiocchi hollow point 124gr in the gun (well...if I carried the X-5 in the first place), I wouldn't practice with American Eagle 115gr.

I roll my own,but friends do bring ammo to shoot in my range.Blazer Brass is in a changing mood over the last couple of years,they were jacketed bullets,then they changed to coated [electro plated].The brass was very good ,now they changed to some junk that looks like Americ brass [Real crap] it will not polish up like the old stuff did.Also it was so clean when you shot the old stuff it was clean on the inside,not now.that stuff is real dirty. About the same as win white box in the dirty dept.
Your jacked defense rounds will act a little different than your plinking rounds,but unless you are a decent shot you want recognize the difference.Well you will when you try to give the barrel a scrubbing after a few hundred rounds.

quote:

Brass is better on the gun IMHO (aluminum oxide is quite hard; aluminum cleaning rods are known to damage barrels because aluminums exterior layer oxidizes and becomes very hard, and I rather not use aluminum cased ammunition because of this).

First it was bashing steel cartridge cases; now it's aluminum cases.

I know you caveated this with "IMHO", but do you have any validated metallurgical evidence to back this up? References?

quote:

Originally posted by 229DAK:

quote:

Brass is better on the gun IMHO (aluminum oxide is quite hard; aluminum cleaning rods are known to damage barrels because aluminums exterior layer oxidizes and becomes very hard, and I rather not use aluminum cased ammunition because of this).

First it was bashing steel cartridge cases; now it's aluminum cases.

I know you caveated this with "IMHO", but do you have any validated metallurgical evidence to back this up? References?

Because of the location of the case (i.e. it's not going down the barrel), it's not likely to do anything. I used IMHO as a lazy alternative for explaining I just rather not have hard metals in that area.

As far as aluminum oxide being hard, it's about a 9 on the Mohs scale. It's quite hard. Aluminum oxide itself can be used as a cheaper replacement for industrial diamond. Now, that's a little different from the layer that forms on all aluminum, but you get the picture.

BTW, HK says not to use steel or aluminum cased ammunition.

quote:

HK says not to use steel or aluminum cased ammunition.

Again I ask, where is the validated evidence?

I have been using steel and aluminum cased ammunition for years in my Sigs and ARs with no ill effects. To quote from one of codecypher's postings: "I have said it before and will say it again. If your weapon won't handle cheap or dirty "military" grade ammo, then you have the wrong weapon to defend your life with. Period. My Colt and CMMG AR's eat anything. My Sig, Kimber and Glock eat anything. If it won't shoot Wolf, it gets traded."

The Army is looking at alternative cartridge case materials, to include polymer and steel, to reduce soldier weight load. If steel comes to fruition, looks like HK is out of business with the US military, huh?

quote:

Originally posted by 229DAK:

quote:

HK says not to use steel or aluminum cased ammunition.

Again I ask, where is the validated evidence?

I have been using steel and aluminum cased ammunition for years in my Sigs and ARs with no ill effects. To quote from one of codecypher's postings: "I have said it before and will say it again. If your weapon won't handle cheap or dirty "military" grade ammo, then you have the wrong weapon to defend your life with. Period. My Colt and CMMG AR's eat anything. My Sig, Kimber and Glock eat anything. If it won't shoot Wolf, it gets traded."

The Army is looking at alternative cartridge case materials, to include polymer and steel, to reduce soldier weight load. If steel comes to fruition, looks like HK is out of business with the US military, huh?

If they coat the steel cases in plastic, then it would probably be even easier on the gun than brass.

You asked for validated evidence. I gave you the Mohs hardness of aluminum oxide. That is SIGNIFICANTLY harder than steel. We're talking not even on the usable range of the Rockwell scales hard. If it doesn't do damage, it has everything to do with where the case goes and nothing to do with the hardness of the materials.

Will handle and should handle are two different things. I think you'll find that many of the firearms companies that have express warranties (the few there are) recommend against or will void the warranty if steel/aluminum cased ammo is used.

quote:

As far as aluminum oxide being hard, it's about a 9 on the Mohs scale. It's quite hard. Aluminum oxide itself can be used as a cheaper replacement for industrial diamond. Now, that's a little different from the layer that forms on all aluminum, but you get the picture.

First off Aluminum oxide, commonly referred to as alumina, is not the same as the Aluminum alloys that metal casings are made of. Pure aluminum oxide looks like a rock. Most Aluminum alloys have other minerals added such as zinc, copper, iron, etc….. check out http://www.onlinemetals.com/aluminumguide.cfm for different alloys and hardness ratings.

2nd the Mohs is the wrong scale to use. Mohs scale of Mineral Hardness characterizes the scratch resistance of various minerals through the ability of a harder material to scratch a softer material. It is also an Ordinal scale meaning a mineral that is a 4 is not twice as hard a 2. Think of a horse race……1st place is not twice of fast as 2nd place.

A better scale would be Brinell Hardness and Rockwell Hardness tests. Now note there are 30 scales on the Rockwell and when testing brass and aluminum a STEEL sphere is used.

Mort steel (steel alloy, hardned steel, etc) is harder then brass and most aluminum alloys.

Wow did i get off topic or what..........

And I am still waiting to see real evidence.

quote:

Originally posted by firedoghfd:

quote:

As far as aluminum oxide being hard, it's about a 9 on the Mohs scale. It's quite hard. Aluminum oxide itself can be used as a cheaper replacement for industrial diamond. Now, that's a little different from the layer that forms on all aluminum, but you get the picture.

First off Aluminum oxide, commonly referred to as alumina, is not the same as the Aluminum alloys that metal casings are made of. Pure aluminum oxide looks like a rock. Most Aluminum alloys have other minerals added such as zinc, copper, iron, etc….. check out http://www.onlinemetals.com/aluminumguide.cfm for different alloys and hardness ratings.

2nd the Mohs is the wrong scale to use. Mohs scale of Mineral Hardness characterizes the scratch resistance of various minerals through the ability of a harder material to scratch a softer material. It is also an Ordinal scale meaning a mineral that is a 4 is not twice as hard a 2. Think of a horse race……1st place is not twice of fast as 2nd place.

A better scale would be Brinell Hardness and Rockwell Hardness tests. Now note there are 30 scales on the Rockwell and when testing brass and aluminum a STEEL sphere is used.

Mort steel (steel alloy, hardned steel, etc) is harder then brass and most aluminum alloys.

I agree the cases aren't made out of alumina (btw, aluminum oxide and alumina aren't always the same thing, usually I've heard alumina used when referring to a synthetic version). My understanding is that the outer layer of aluminum oxidizes very quickly (for instance, find an old junkyarded Mercedes where they used anodized aluminum for chrome, polish the anodizing off, and see how long the aluminum lasts before it oxidizes). I agree Mohs is not a good scale to use, but it's the only one I could find that had aluminum oxide on it.

quote:

Originally posted by 229DAK:
And I am still waiting to see real evidence.

Ok, get one of those cheapy aluminum cleaning rods. Now get your barrel, and start rubbing the inside of the barrel with the rod. Rub it back and forth with some pressure for a couple of hours. See if the inside of your barrel now has marks.

quote:

BTW, HK says not to use steel or aluminum cased ammunition.

i called HK on this issue. I was told the Hk should not have an issue using steel or aluminum cased ammuntion. however if one of the bullets were to fail HK will not cover the damage. He went on to say that the steel casings tend not to expand. He stated that steel rounds most people buy have a higher failure rate then the brass ones. I asked what if a brass casing was to fail he stated HK would still not cover then gun.

about the aluminum case rounds he stated it still does not expand the same as brass. again the HK should not have issue with it however if one was to fail you are SOL. He did state HK was tested with brass and designed around brass.

quote:

Originally posted by cdrross:
how much of an accuaracy difference would "quality" ammo provide over range plinking ammo, and what recommendations of "quality" ammo would you all recommend?
Thanks.

all right now that we are way off topic lets anwser the OP question.

talking only about accuaracy is there a difference between Blazer and other more expensive brands?

I use UMC to get in some practice.
Bass Pro's has them for $54.99 for a box of 250.
They're clean and accurate.
Best bang for the buck.
http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Produc...416____SearchResults

quote:

Originally posted by cdrross:
how much of an accuaracy difference would "quality" ammo provide over range plinking ammo, and what recommendations of "quality" ammo would you all recommend?

If I understand your question it may be asked as "Does one manufacturer of ammo beat any other in accuracy?" The best answer is try and see. Ammunition and accuracy is part bullet design, part your gun and part how you shoot. You have already stated you are looking at training so you are taking care of the "how you shot" part. Your gun may shoot different ammunition differently. (It's the part bullet design and part gun issue there). Reduce the variables as much as possible by trying different ammunition manufacturers and see which ones your gun digests well and determine which one it shoots better with. As you did not mention handloading I kept my opinions to factory manufactured ammunition.

quote:

Originally posted by Cruiser:
I use UMC to get in some practice.
Bass Pro's has them for $54.99 for a box of 250.
They're clean and accurate.
Best bang for the buck.
http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Produc...416____SearchResults

I have very good accuracy with these rounds thru my XD9. And you can't beat $.22 a round. You really have to get a box of everything you want to try and test them out.