'Evening.

I was wondering if anyone knew what specific loads were used by the Virginia State Police and/or the Fairfax County (VA) Police Department. I've been able to glean that VSP uses .357 SIG and FCPD .40 S&W (both out of SIGs), but no more than that.

I'm partly just curious, and partly considering some advice I once read about using the same ammunition that one's local agency uses. Supposedly that closes off an avenue of legal attack in case of a self-defense shooting.

Frankly, I'm not at all convinced that that's a practical consideration, but it wouldn't hurt to at least know what those agencies use. I'm assuming their collective experience and expertise is rather greater than mine (though I suppose politics and budget might be a factor also).

I've seen the suggestion on the few similar threads that I've found that the questioner just call the agency and ask them. I suppose I could, but somehow I have this idea that they might be a bit suspicious of some random voice on the phone. I don't otherwise interact with either agency enough to just walk up to an officer and ask them (I've applied for FCPD Citizens Police Academy, but it's full with a _long_ waiting list).

Thanks in advance for any information. Feel free to comment on the legal aspect of it, but that's not really what I'm looking for, thanks.

regards,

GR

quote:

Supposedly that closes off an avenue of legal attack in case of a self-defense shooting.

I would think that if you use commonly available JHP self-defense cartridges (e.g., Speer Gold Dot, Remington Golden Saber, Winchester SXT, Hornaday TAP), you wouldn't have an issue.

If you are in a shooting, you will likely be sued. Period. It won't matter the type of ammo used, somebody in the bad guy's family will hire a lawyer to sue you.

If it goes to trial, then I suspect the jury won't mind that you used JHP ammo. Be more worried what the jury thinks if you were using target ammo (non-JHP) as defensive ammo. The non-JHP bullets are more likely to go thru bad guys and continue on into other things or persons.

I am not a lawyer, nor a LEO.

Welcome to the forum. I agree with the two previous replies; use any common JHP. If you prefer to use the LEO type of ammo, there's nothing wrong with that either.

This has come up in the past, and I do not recall a lawsuit focusing on the ammo.

BTW, you'll enjoy the citizen's academy.

Im preety sure Virginia State Police uses 125gr Speer Gold dot in their SigP229R DAK

Appreciate the replies.

I've never taken the legal implications of any reasonably good-quality ammunition too seriously.

First, if a trial attorney is making an issue of your ammunition, it's doubtful that s/he has much of a case otherwise. A good shoot will be a good shoot. IANAL, and an opinion from an actual trial attorney is welcome.

Second, some years ago I had LEXIS access and did some informal research on the "prosecutor will crucify you for using reloads" FUD. I'm sure I'm not the best legal researcher around, but I couldn't find one case, anywhere, where _anything_ about the ammunition in a self-defense case was an issue. There may be such a case somewhere, but it's certainly not a major consideration.

Still, I would think that knowing what load(s) are used by larger and/or local agencies would be a useful data point.

Thanks, all.

GR

I've been on grand juries where lottsa stuff that you could not find on Lexis _did_ matter... I'm sure other juries are the same.

Your haircut, clothes, and tatoos can matter and not show up on Lexis, so can your gun and ammo. Or not. How lucky do you feel?

Another thing to think about: a local defense attorney told me she has to be prepared for any argument, prep takes time, and her time is my money. Some guns and ammo will "cost" you more than others, even if you win.

Just to complicate matters, state police (and the FBI) have selected ammo in the past based on its ability to penetrate auto glass and bodies, since a lot of the perps they have to deal with are on highways and barricaded in or behind vehicles. Their loads may penetrate a bit more than you really want for a home or personal defense situation.

BrokenArrow (August 24, 2008 01:29 PM) says:

quote:

Some guns and ammo will "cost" you more than others, even if you win.

Fair enough. What, specifically, has your grand jury experience and your consultation with the defense attorney taught you about proper ammunition to use? A description of how the load was relevant in the grand jury hearing would be especially helpful.

If I have chosen to use either .357 SIG or .40 S&W in my SIG P229, how should I choose a specific load? Why should I choose that one and not some other?

Let's keep it about specific loads and not drift off into a purely legal discussion. That would belong in another forum, IMHO.

regards,

GR

My experience leads me to believe _anything_ you use can be twisted and used against you. Nothing is risk free, but some guns and ammo are riskier than others.

Factory ammo is less risky than handloads. Personal protection/home defense less risky than tactical/LEO. Use what the city/county/state/feds use and you are responsible or a cop/vigilante wannabe... you can get screwed/carried away in either direction.

Find your comfort level on the risk/benefit scale pre/post shooting and be sure to have self defense insurance that includes legal fees (many standard homeowners policies will not apply if it is an intentional shooting in self defense and/or off property as opposed to an unintentional/accidental shooting in the home).

JHPs from Win, Fed, Rem, and Speer work for me in my P229R-DAK w X200 and CT grips. My Rem 870P (wood stock/rifle sights) has an extended tube and flashlight w low recoil "home defense" ammo.

Not minimally risky, but far from the max.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: BrokenArrow,

Just use one of the name brands that work well in your gun. Ranger T, HST, GD and GS are all used by LEO and work well in most guns.

Thanks, BrokenArrow, that was helpful.

regards,

GR

Take this from a trial attorney - worry about the law, not the ammunition. Bringing up the ammunition type is just a waste of time. The character issues and tattoos might matter more. For instance, if you are a known town drunk, that would be an issue.

Another point, how are they gonna know it's handloaded ammo?

I want the best performance I can get from my gun, and that's not offered in factory ammo, so why, when my life depends on it, should I use ammo that someone else made?

GR,

There is a section on GlockTalk.com for Glockers of the Old Dominion in the State Club section of the forum. You may want to post your question over there as you would have a more tailored audience.

I cannot see a discussion about ammunition entering into the equation, unless the ammunition itself was considered to be illegal in the jurisdiction itself. And the grand jury is different from the jury that will try you, as they are allowed to consider a broader range of evidence than a trial jury. Plus, the Grand Jury is not convened in a civil case. Character issues may not even be allowed at the Criminal or Civil trial, depending on the specific relevance and temporal considerations. Look at it this way, if your defense attorney is worth their salt, it will come down to the legal definition of self defense or justifiable homicide in your jurisdiction - and a good defense counsel will always bring it back around to that point. I would be all over character issues as to relevance. I think you are thinking about this too much. Can you shoot straight? Do you know what the lethal force law is in your jurisdiction? Do you know what your thresholds are? Those are the primary issues you need to consider. Everything else is just paranoia.

I once asked an FCPD officer this very question just out of curiosity and he told me 9mm federal hydrashocks JHP in 115gr maybe in +P+ but I might not remember correctly.

I think the VSP carries the P229 DAK in .357SIG

Please correct me if I'm wrong about these I just asked out of curiosity.

Personally I think you should carry the load you are confident in to stop the immediate threat to your life and will be reliable in your firearm.

If you search the web you can find alot of data collected on various high quality loads out there to help make your decision.

Getting defense attorneys to agree on what does and does not matter is like getting diet doctors to agree on what you should and should not eat.

What matters to the "law", and what matters to a jury when they are trying to decide who to believe/doubt, what evidence and testimony to accept/reject, which way to lean, etc are very different things. Lots of things will matter to them that don't matter to the law, and lots of things will be considered that should not. That's real life. That's why we get so many great decisions from juries.

If you are in court, you have already busted the odds and are on the wrong side of somebody's discretion, the law, or Lady Luck.

IMO, your gun and ammo matters more than not at all ever, and a lot less than some think.

quote:

Originally posted by BrokenArrow:
My experience leads me to believe _anything_ you use can be twisted and used against you. ...

You're absolutely right about that, BA, I routinely tell clients that possession is not nine-tenths of the law, that possession is one-tenth of the law; the other nine-tenths is how you characterize that possession. In this case, substitute "ammunition type" for "possession". I respectfully disagree with just about everything else you've said, though. In my experience, good defense lawyers pretty much agree on trial strategy and tactics given a particular set of facts and a specific charging document.

quote:

Originally posted by pcolvario:
Take this from a trial attorney - worry about the law, not the ammunition. Bringing up the ammunition type is just a waste of time. The character issues and tattoos might matter more. For instance, if you are a known town drunk, that would be an issue.

Agree one hundred percent, and another instance of defense lawyers in agreement.

quote:

Originally posted by Gentleman Ranker:
...if a trial attorney is making an issue of your ammunition, it's doubtful that s/he has much of a case otherwise. A good shoot will be a good shoot. IANAL, and an opinion from an actual trial attorney is welcome....

I've been practicing in Fairfax County for the past twenty years, and I've found that works best is to be blunt and direct with the facts as you see them. The whole point of carrying a gun is to be able to shoot somebody dead'rn-a-doornail, period. You want the most effective ammunition you can get for that specific purpose. But if you've discharged your weapon against a store clerk during a convenience store hold up in which you were one of the robbers, then you need a plea bargain, not a defense. And the "good faith belief" rule isn't a cop thing, cops use it because it's a general legal principle. If you had an objective, articulable reason to believe your life was in danger, the "defense of self or others" and "sudden emergency" exceptions apply.

And speaking of "cop things", there's a kind of hyperbole cops use in order to make people believe things because it helps them be more effective. A form of psychological combat, for which the technical legal term is, "dust in the eyes". For example, in "Dirty Harry", Harry Callahan says, "And, seein' as how this is the .44 magnum and the most powerful handgun in the world and will blow your head clean off, you gotta ask yourself one question..."; and since the time that movie came out people have been falling all over themselves to make the point that the .44 magnum was not the most powerful handgun even at that time, nor would it blow the criminal's head "clean off" (though it would leave an appreciable exit wound). But none of that matters - it's cop-hyperbole. And that scene demonstrates its effectiveness: the bad guy believed the threat and declined to retrieve the shotgun.

Cops have a legitimate interest in protecting themselves from bad guys who want to shoot at cops. Unfortunately, they don't know who the bad guys are. Think about Michael Douglas' character in "Falling Down". Nerdy sort of engineer type goes nuts and starts shooting up Los Angeles. Peaceful citizen one day, nut case the next. It happens. And when it happens, the cops would prefer you were loaded with FMJ's, not Hydrashocks or HST's. Because they are afraid you may be shooting at them someday. It's not rational, no, it's fear. But you can see the point. I strongly suspect that's where this ammo-type rumor came from, but as an attorney, I'd point out that it doesn't matter what you're carrying IN the gun if you've got a gun, you intend to be carrying a deadly weapon. And in circumstances amounting to a crime or a wrongful death, that's all anyone will ever need. What kind of bullet you've got might be icing on the cake, but it's a big who-cares in my estimation.

"Just about everything else" instead of "everything else" is good enough for me.