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posted
Hey all-

I'm wondering what what round would be the 300 Blackout equivalent of the M193 5.56?

What I mean is: a round that is FMJ, combat accurate, and not designed for punching paper but for being "fired in anger" without being high tech or terribly expensive.

Who makes such a round?

Bruce




"I cannot spare this man. He fights!"
-Abraham Lincoln

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child — miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied, demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless. Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
-PJ O'Rourke
“It is just as difficult and dangerous to try to free a people that wants to remain servile as it is to try to enslave a people that wants to remain free."
-Niccolo Machiavelli

 
Posts: 3328 | Location: NV | Registered: October 06, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I'm not certain such a FMJ round exists. I've shot supersonic blackout rounds with FMJ bullets from 120 to 150 grains. None of them were vary accurate and recovered bullets in dirt/sand/mud looked almost good enough to reload.

M193's 55 grain bullet tumbles and fragments at high enough velocities. I don't think there is an equivalent in stubby .308 bullets that fit into the blackout case. Even it we could get a tumbling & fragmenting 308 bullet, due to its high weight, it probably couldn't be launched fast enough from a blackout to be able to tumble & fragment.
 
Posts: 6016 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I wonder if a soft point bullet would do the job?

Right now, the Hornady Black 110 gr is the only round I trust for shooting things other than paper. Too expensive to lay in a couple of thousand rounds, though.

Bruce




"I cannot spare this man. He fights!"
-Abraham Lincoln

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child — miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied, demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless. Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
-PJ O'Rourke
“It is just as difficult and dangerous to try to free a people that wants to remain servile as it is to try to enslave a people that wants to remain free."
-Niccolo Machiavelli

 
Posts: 3328 | Location: NV | Registered: October 06, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by RNshooter:
I wonder if a soft point bullet would do the job?

Right now, the Hornady Black 110 gr is the only round I trust for shooting things other than paper. Too expensive to lay in a couple of thousand rounds, though.

A soft point might work -- maybe a bullet in the 110-130 grain ballpark from Hornady, Sierra, or Speer. I suspect this would be a hand load. Something like the bullets often used in .30-30 ammo, but with a lighter bullet.

Factory loads aren't going to be cheap. 110 VMax is one of the more reasonably priced rounds. Loads with the copper-based bullets are expensive -- as in the Barnes loads.
 
Posts: 6016 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Still finding my way
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The .300 AAC wasn't ever intended to be used in the same manner as the M193 or any 5.56.
It's supposed to be the extra most bestest sub gun cartridge to replace the 9mm sub machine gun.
 
Posts: 8112 | Registered: January 04, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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Good comments thus far.

As stated, a .30 caliber FMJ bullet will tumble in flesh, as will almost any spitzer bullet that doesn’t expand, but it won’t fragment unless it’s travelling faster than 300 Blackout velocities. From what I’ve seen, FMJ bullets even in military loads of the 7.62×51mm NATO round don’t fragment. For serious purposes, then, we want something that’s intended to expand, like a soft point or “tipped” projectile.

I have tentatively settled on the Hornady 110 grain V-MAX load for defensive purposes. As one YouTuber points out, varmint-type bullets like the 110 gn. V-MAX (V for varmint) are usually not recommended for large game, but at lower 300 BLK velocities, especially from short barrels, ready expansion isn’t a bad thing like it would be in 308 Winchester, for example. On the other hand, there is at least one video out there showing that bullet’s failing to expand from a short barrel. That was not, however, a Hornady factory load, and as I recall, the velocity was well under 1700 fps. I suspect the factory load would do better even from a short 9-10 inch barrel. I can’t find any data for the factory load and short barrels, but hope to do my own testing before too long.

I wouldn’t want to rely on the 110 V-MAX for shooting through something like a windshield, and therefore I wouldn’t. If the only gun I had for that purpose was chambered for 300 Blackout, I’d have a magazine filled with one of the solid copper bullet loads on the market.

And although we all must make our own choices, my choice is that a few magazines full of the best defensive stuff I can find is more than enough for any reasonable purpose. Being more expensive than what I use for practice and training is immaterial. It’s extremely unlikely I will ever have to use a gun for self-defense, and even less likely I would ever have to actually shoot someone. If that ever happens, though, I’m not going to be thinking, “Gee, that was an awfully expensive round I just fired.” I will want it to be as effective as it can be.




“I can’t give you brains, but I can give you a diploma.”
— The Wizard of Oz
 
Posts: 39818 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Used my 16" 300 BLK rifle (T/C Contender) on a deer with the Hornady 110 Vmax rounds. While I got the deer, and his insides were shot up, I'll switch to a heavier bullet (125-130) for hunting. No blood trail and not enough energy in my opinion. I know, it's not the same, but the deer ran 50 yards dead on his feet. So would a bad guy I think.
 
Posts: 98 | Location: Pa | Registered: September 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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quote:
Originally posted by josp:
I know, it's not the same, but the deer ran 50 yards dead on his feet. So would a bad guy I think.


Well, as you say, it’s not the same.

As I discussed in another thread recently, some things like cartridges become popular because they’re popular, and without a good examination of how their characteristics fulfill all the roles we assign to them. The 300 Blackout cartridge is a good cartridge if we want something that fits and functions well in the standard 223/5.56 AR-15/M16 rifle platform without the complications of different lowers and different magazines (mostly). It’s a good cartridge to use suppressed, but in addition to the general advantages of the AR platform, for close range defensive purposes it’s an excellent round for use with a short barrel as compared with the 223/5.56.

From my 9 inch MCX barrel the Hornady factory load of the 110 grain V-MAX bullet has an average velocity of about 2190 feet per second. That produces a muzzle energy of about 1170 foot-pounds. Compare that with my favorite 223 Remington load for serious purposes, the Speer 64 grain Gold Dot at ~2770 fps and ~1090 foot-pounds. From a similar 16 inch barrel a military spec M193 (55 grain) bullet at 3040 fps produces about 1130 ft-lb of energy. So, from a short 9" barrel we can get at least as much energy as the 223/5.56 produces from a 16" barrel. I would not like to rely on the 223 cartridge from 9 inches, but have no qualms about the 300 BLK from the same sized gun. But that’s only for short range personal defensive purposes, not for hunting big game.

There are countless other cartridges that are better suited for any type of hunting than the 300 Blackout if we’re more interested in quick, solid, and humane kills than the coolness of using a suppressed rifle, even with a conventional length barrel, or even with different bullets. Just to cite one example, from my 20 inch Tikka barrel, the Federal 168 grain Tactical Bonded Tip bullet is driven about 2660 fps, producing ~2640 ft-lb of energy, or well over twice the energy of the 110 grain Hornady from my MCX. Other rifles and rounds produce even more energy.

The “V” in V-MAX refers to the fact that Hornady designed it to hunt “varmints,” small animals that are usually killed in large numbers as nuisances or for the sport, and with no intention of using them as food. Varmint bullets are usually designed to be driven at high velocities and to expand very readily and quickly. Many people have reported getting good kills on medium game like deer with the bullet, but that’s by good luck, not something we should rely on. I haven’t hunted deer-sized game in decades, but I’ve read countless accounts about hunting all sorts of game animals. For game that’s to be harvested, the experienced hunters who have written about the subject over the decades all talk about two primary bullet criteria: adequate expansion coupled with adequate penetration. Penetration is probably the more important of the two to ensure that the bullet reaches and destroys the vital organs—including shots taken from any angle to the animal’s body. The fact that someone killed a deer standing broadside at 50 yards with a varmint bullet shot into the thorax, or neck, or head proves nothing about that bullet’s general suitability for hunting deer.

But to return to the original point, hunting deer or similarly-sized animals is not the same as shooting people for self-defense. Many authorities will tell us that the only way to ensure that a bad guy is physically incapable of being a threat by firing a gun, for example, is to shut down the brain’s ability to control the body’s muscles. That is accomplished in three primary ways: to damage the brain itself so that it can no longer function properly, to sever the brain’s connection with the muscles, or to stop the body’s supply of oxygen and nutrients to the brain, and therefore shutting down the brain.

A bullet to the brain is a way of accomplishing the first way. A bullet that severs the spine or other nerve(s) cuts the connection between the brain and muscles. If the circulatory system (heart and blood vessels) is damaged sufficiently, blood doesn’t flow properly and the brain shuts down.

The obvious fact, however, is that countless shooting victims have stopped their aggressive actions even if one of those things didn’t happen to their bodies. As far as I can determine from my own research, the reasons for that are not understood. There’s lots of speculation, but no one knows for sure why one guy can take a nonexpanding 32 S&W bullet to the abdomen and fall to the floor as if poleaxed whereas another can take numerous hits from rifle bullets and continue to function until shot to pieces. The most obvious likely answer is that different shooting victims suffer different psychological reactions to the impact (shock) of being shot. As far as we know, animals don’t react in the same ways humans do because their understanding of what has happened to them is not the same as ours. It’s been reported that some people have been shot without even being aware of the fact.

What seems to be true, however, is that the more powerful and damaging the bullet, the more likely it will stop the aggression quickly, regardless of where it hits. That’s not always true, but it’s true often enough for us to include the fact in our self-defense decision making process.

One problem with the 300 Blackout cartridge is that most .30 caliber bullets suitable for loading in the round were designed to expand at real rifle velocities. That makes them marginal performers in the 300 BLK, and especially out of short barrels (and that includes a 16 inch barrel, which is “short” by normal rifle standards). If a self-defense bullet doesn’t expand in the bad guy target, much of its energy will probably be wasted, and therefore be less effective in stopping the threat. Because of the Hornady 110 grain V-MAX bullet’s construction, though, it has been demonstrated to expand reliably even out of short pistol-length barrels. That, plus its speedy velocity even from a short barrel and its good resulting energy, mean that it’s likely to be a good one for defensive purposes when we want our weapon to be short and handy.

For hunting game animals, though, there are countless other bullets and cartridges that would serve the purpose far better.




“I can’t give you brains, but I can give you a diploma.”
— The Wizard of Oz
 
Posts: 39818 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
I haven’t hunted deer-sized game in decades


Thanks for your opinion.
 
Posts: 98 | Location: Pa | Registered: September 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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quote:
Originally posted by josp:
quote:
I haven’t hunted deer-sized game in decades


Thanks for your opinion.


You’re more than welcome.

But here’s the rest of that statement and which should be obvious to the discerning reader was a statement of fact, not opinion:*
“I haven’t hunted deer-sized game in decades, but I’ve read countless accounts about hunting all sorts of game animals. For game that’s to be harvested, the experienced hunters who have written about the subject over the decades all talk about two primary bullet criteria: adequate expansion coupled with adequate penetration.”

But now it’s your opportunity: Do you believe that there are no better cartridges for hunting deer-sized game than the 300 Blackout? If so, what is the basis for your opinion?

* I believe there’s actually an online test someplace that tests one’s ability to tell the difference between statements of fact and statements of opinion. Not all statements of fact are necessarily true, but that one is.




“I can’t give you brains, but I can give you a diploma.”
— The Wizard of Oz
 
Posts: 39818 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thanks for your well reasoned, well supported opinions. And for the facts Wink

Bruce




"I cannot spare this man. He fights!"
-Abraham Lincoln

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child — miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied, demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless. Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
-PJ O'Rourke
“It is just as difficult and dangerous to try to free a people that wants to remain servile as it is to try to enslave a people that wants to remain free."
-Niccolo Machiavelli

 
Posts: 3328 | Location: NV | Registered: October 06, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I’ve been a 300 blackout fan boy since it’s creation. I was one of the lucky ones who got in on the first batch of barrels. I’ve tested everything from 80 grain projectiles meant for .380 to 247 grain cast/coated subs. As was stated above it’s a great short barrel round but works fine in 16” (use pistol gas system). Even took a black bear 2 years ago with my Rem 700. Used a 130 grain Barnes TTSX loaded over some Lil Gun. 16” of penetration through left side ribs, breaking the offside shoulder and lodging under the skin. Turned his heart and lungs into jello. He went a few steps and dropped. I’m eager to try the Speer Gold Dots. To answer your original question, I’m not sure there is an exact equivalent but I’d think one of the 125 grain match hps would work well. I tested the Sierra and it performed very well in 10% gel.


"Dyin ain't much of a livin...boy"
 
Posts: 239 | Location: West (By GOD) Virginia | Registered: November 07, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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