I came across some winchester black talon ammunition, 230gr .45 and 147gr 9mm.
I don't recall what the uproar over it was?
Can't find any specs on it as far as velocity and energy.
Anyone have any details on it? Would you load and carry it or lean toward modern stuff? (not age so much as performance)
|Lost Allman Brother|
It was good for its day, and you could do far worse even now given the junk that some people load in their carry guns.
That being said, modern hollowpoints from the big guys (Speer, Federal, Winchester, Remington, Hornady) perform more consistently and have fewer issues when encountering barriers like auto glass or heavy clothing. Ranger T and Ranger Bonded/PDX-1 use the most up to date Winchester hollowpoint design.
Black Talons were controversial thanks to the media and politicans dishonestly claiming that they were "cop-killer bullets" capable of ripping through bulletproof vests because of their "teflon coating" (actually black moly Lubalox). They made them out to be death rays, causing massive injuries and tearing off limbs. In reality they performed about on par with other common law enforcement rounds of the day and were not any more armor-piercing than comparable pistol ammo.
Their system of ethics, which regards treachery and violence as virtues rather than vices, has produced a code of honour so strange and inconsistent, that it is incomprehensible to a logical mind.
-Winston Churchill, writing of the Pashtun
The shooting that was the death knell of the Black Talon regarding retail sales
After the shooting at 101 California St in S.F. I called Winchester in September and was informed that Winchester was stopping the further distribution of BT ammo to the retail market but what was already on the shelves would remain and not be subject to recall.
The BT ammo was then marketed as L.E. only under their Ranger line of ammo.
And, no, I would NEVER carry any BT ammo for SD because of the connotation that it is "Teflon" coated "armor piercing" and is "racist" because it was given the nickname "Black Felon" ammo.
Besides the current Ranger T-Series ammo is much better than the original reverse taper Black Talon design.
Here's something I first posted about four years ago:
Win Ranger RA9T penetration & expansion testing
Executive summary: 18” in water, expanded to about 5/8”.
Let me be clear; This is very UNscientific testing.
My new G-19 is loaded with 147gr Ranger RA9Ts. I set up four water-filled milk jugs and fired one round from about 10’.
The bullet went through three water-filled milk jugs (6”each) and stopped in #4. I called it 18 inches, more than I had expected. Expansion was also good, about 5/8 inch. See photos below.
I’m comfortable with the RA9Ts in my G-19.
|I have not yet begun |
Don't forget they even attack the trauma surgeons! Those "razor sharp talons" would cut their gloves and fingers!
Never mind that trauma surgeons deal with broken glass, jagged bone ends and other "razor sharp" things on a daily basis including scalpels.
After the game, the King and the pawn go into the same box.
When I started in 1998 all we had were Black Talons. Our range guy went crazy and bought cases upon cases. In 2008 when I switched us to 357SIG we had a blast shooting up all our old black talons before we turned in our last .40 gun.
Not minority enough!
Great thread - I just read a few reviews on the Ranger T 147gr for the 9mm and this is a round I want to pick up a few boxes for my HD pistol and give it a try.
Anyone have a lead on where the aforementioned Ranger "T" series in 9mm 147gr 50 round boxes can be picked up for a reasonable price....
Thanks Sigmund for your post and photos....Mark
I got mine from SF member Hot Pig at http://www.mahsupplies.net/ RA9T is in stock for $27.95 (different box though) but I had to provide LEO ID.
|Membership has its privileges|
I bought a case of .45 acp Black Talons, a month before Winchester pulled them.
I wish I had sold them then. They were bringing a premium for sure.
Today, they are readily available and bring a small premium, probably as more of a novelty than anything.
I still have my case, but it is worth a fraction of what it once was.
I did some very unscientific testing, into water filled 2 Liter bottles and water soaked phone books. The Black Talons I recovered could have been used in an ad for Winchester, they expanded perfectly, from a P-220.
Niech Zyje P-220
Sigmund - Thanks Sir for the link but unfortunately I am not Law Enforcement....
I do appreciate the response and support Sir. Merry Christmas.....Mark
I carry those back in the day, I still have them on the shelf.
I have found some BT at gun shows and when the seller has them at a reasonable price I buy them just to shoot them. For SD I carry newer Speer Gold Dot, but I have some Winchester PDX1 in various calibers.
All my guns have killed less people than Ted Kennedy's car.
Found the pics.
This is when we switched from Black Talons to SXT and HST. Shot these into a big garbage can full of water out of our issued Glock 22 back in 2002.
Not minority enough!
|Little ray |
But Black Talon ammo has a scary name. Everyone knows black equals evil. And, "talon?" It speaks for itself.
The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything.
I once heard that according to Winchester SXT meant “same exact thing” [as Black Talon].
“Most men … can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it … would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions … which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives.”
— Leo Tolstoy
Senator Daniel Patrick Monihan (sp?) called them spinning buzz saws of death if I recall correctly. Hahaha
-------------------------------------------------------2/28/2015 ~ Rest in peace Dad. Lt Commander E.G.E. USN Love you.
If all rifles came in pink the liberal anti gun folks wouldn't be so up in arms (pun intended). But you'd have to wear a dress to your next BBQ show and tell.
When life gets stressful, put down your firearm and play with your Barbie.
I just picked a case up here;
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"
I picked up a quantity of Black Talon at a gunshow many years ago, and until recently, it was one of my chosen carry rounds. I still have a small supply remaining. I also have some Ranger T remaining.
I've got a question though. I'm starting to suspect that the Black Talon that I have may have been reloads as I bought it loose and it is brass cased. It does have Winchester brass.
Does anyone know if Winchester ever produced any brass cased Black Talon?
Yes, the Ranger SXT law enforcement ammo was also produced with brass cases.
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