Shooters ,
What caliber has the fastest incapacitation time-the .357 sig or the .45 caliber with both caliber's having the same shot placement?


Thank-You for your thoughts!
Cat

This should be fun.

Unscientifically, I'd lean to the .45. But really, anyone who says they can answer this authoritatively really has no idea what they're talking about.

this should be a good one I think its personal Pref but thats just me. There is no magic caliber or bullet. No death ray gun it takes the right load selection but more so training. TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN. A hit with at 22cal trumps a miss with a 40 MM

quote:

Originally posted by devastator:
Shooters ,
What caliber has the fastest incapacitation time-the .357 sig or the .45 caliber with both caliber's having the same shot placement?


Thank-You for your thoughts!
Cat

Way too many variables. What works in one shooting will fail in another. I trust my life to either w/ good JHP.

I've never seen any modern tests looking at incapacitation times for any caliber/loading.

I want to say I saw some reports of such done on cows, but that was many ages ago and used much older bullet designs.

cc

quote:

Originally posted by devastator:
Shooters ,
What caliber has the fastest incapacitation time-the .357 sig or the .45 caliber with both caliber's having the same shot placement?


Thank-You for your thoughts!
Cat

icepick to the brainstem
n

This ammo ballistic information was sent to me thru the internet which I find interesting:

Now, lets get down to business! In terms of: Shock, Hydrostatic Shock, Stopping Power, Knock-Down Power... There is no such thing, but then again, there kind of is. What there is a such thing as is Ballistic Pressure Wave, A.K.A. - BPW. Whether you've heard of it yet or not, I don't know. Reguardless, here's my knowledge of the subject.

A bullet (any bullet at any velocity, JHP, FMJ, soft point...) hits a human or animal and creates a pressure wave through the animal as it penetrates. Because the pressure wave was the result of a projectile, we call it a Ballistic Pressure Wave (BPW).

When a high enough Peak Ballistic Pressure Wave (PBPW) is achieved, the PBPW is capable of causing mild-moderate traumatic brain injury (MTBI), among other things, although, what all the other things are, we don't all know yet.



So now you may be asking; "Ok, so what does this all mean in terms of shooting in SD???" It means the difference between a BG being in a fight till enough blood loss occures to lead to oxygen starvation to the brain which will take over 5 seconds, 5 seconds being a best case scenario for you and usually more like a minute or more depending on where you hit the BG, the whole time in which if he has the will he can keep shooting at you, as compared to under 5 seconds or immediately up to about 90% of the time with a round producing a high enough PBPW (1300psi worth of PBPW).



What this all boils down to is incapacitating a BG in under 5 seconds. At this point it is theorized the following probablilities at various levels of PBPW:
500psi = 15%
700psi = 50%
1000psi=75%
1300psi=90%

BTW, I probably should have mentioned earlier, we measure BPW and/or PBPW in pounds per square inch (psi). AND, A BULLET SHOULD PENETRATE AT LEAST 10" TO GET THE DESIRED EFFECT!!! Because, if the PBPW happens too early it will have a much harder time reaching the brain. YET, NEVER SACRIFICE PENETRATION DEPTH FOR A HIGHER PBPW.

At this point I think you pretty much have the idea of BPW, what it is, and what we expect of it. The calculation is as follows -

p = (5*E)/(pi*d)

E = the kinetic energy the round produces. pi = 3.14, and d = penetration depth in feet. p will be the PBPW produced by the round in question. And BTW, for FMJ bullets, the equation is different. To figure PBPW for FMJ bullets, substitute the "5" with a "3".

So to calculate any given load/round, all you need if the penetration depth, and the kinetic energy. All the rest is given to you in the equation. And believe me, it is that simple. Scientists have been on GT and explained exactly how and why the equation works, even with a bunch of naysayers trying to get the best of the scientists.

Here is a list of all rounds I have calculated



DT 357SIG Gold Dot, 115gr, 1550fps, KE=613, P=12.12, E=.71, 4.8ci, 955psi
DT 357SIG Gold Dot, 125gr, 1450fps, KE=584, P=14.50, E=.66, 4.1ci, 770psi
Win357SIG T Series, 125gr, 1350fps, KE=506, P=12.10, E=.66, 4.1ci, 798psi
Win357SIG Bonded,, 125gr, 1350fps, KE=506, P=15.90, E=.57, 3.1ci, 608psi
DT 357SIG Gold Dot, 147gr, 1250fps, KE=510, P=14.75, E=.73, 5.0ci, 661psi



DT 45auto Gold Dot, 185gr, 1225fps, KE=616, P=12.75, E=.82, 6.3ci, 923psi
Rem45auto G Saber, 185gr, 1140fps, KE=534, P=14.25, E=.70, 4.6ci, 716psi
Win45auto Silvertip, 185gr, 1000fps, KE=411, P=13.25, E=.70, 4.6ci, 593psi
DT 45auto Gold Dot, 200gr, 1125fps, KE=562, P=14.25, E=.88, 7.3ci, 753psi
DT 45auto Gold Dot, 230gr, 1010fps, KE=521, P=15.25, E=.95, 8.5ci, 653psi
Federal45auto+P HST,230gr, 950fps, KE=461, P=14.60, E=.85, 6.8ci, 603psi
Federal 45auto HST, 230gr,, 890fps, KE=405, P=14.40, E=.86, 7.0ci, 537psi
Speer 45auto G Dot, 230gr,, 890fps, KE=405, P=13.50, E=.70, 4.6ci, 573psi
Rem45auto G Saber, 230gr,, 875fps, KE=391, P=14.00, E=.74, 5.2ci, 534psi
Win 45auto T Series, 230gr, 905fps, KE=418, P=12.70, E=.72, 4.9ci, 630psi
Win45auto+PTSeries, 230gr, 990fps, KE=500, P=15.20, E=.78, 5.7ci, 628psi
Win 45 auto Bonded, 230gr, 905fps, KE=418, P=15.80, E=.67, 4.2ci, 506psi

In the above figures, KE = kinetic energy, P = penetration depth in inches, E = expanded bullet diameter, ci = cubic inches of wound volume, and the psi represent the PBPW. ALL were shot in to clothed gel using all FBI protocols.
__________________

Just the facts

BPW is a nice theory, but it is still just that. While some damage is done to the surrounding tissue by temp. stretch cav. the BPW theory relys on the "chance" that internal compression of the blood vessels will have an affect on the brain. Can it, sure, does it reliably, probably not.
I'm not sure how anyone can determine this outside of controled testing on live human targets. It's been field observed hunting deer, but that isn't really a controlled study & the deer are NOT humans.
I think there is some credibilty to temp. cav. wounding IF the bullet lands close enough to a major organ. Vel. by itself doesn't kill but high vel. is usefull in getting the bullet to do more work (expand & penetrate). Anything more than that is just icing on the cake IMO. It is one reason I do like a good 185grJHP @ 1000fps+ in the 45acp. It's hard not to like what the 357sig brings to the table as long as you are using a good bullet that can withstand the higher impact vel.

The fastest incapacitation will occur with whatever shot hits a vital area.

I don't care if you have a 105mm howitzer if you can't hit shit with it it won't do a damn thing.

In a vital hit either round will stop a person VERY quickly.


Kevin

Now, that's a hard one. It's pretty much a wash. I mean, back in the sandbox, I hit a tango at 200 yards, with my 1911, square in the chest hand he flew 50 feet - would've been 75 feet, but a palm tree was in the way. Now when I was back in CONUS I was working with Treadstone (shhhh!) and had my trusty 229 in 357 Sig. I had to put a round in a crazed assassin. That BG literally exploaded! I also ruined a new Brooks Brother's suit from all the powder burns. So I'd say, both will get the job done, if you can handle the awesomeness of the rounds.

So if you hit someone in the brain or spine with either will it make a difference?

quote:

Originally posted by LINVS:
Now, that's a hard one. It's pretty much a wash. I mean, back in the sandbox, I hit a tango at 200 yards, with my 1911, square in the chest hand he flew 50 feet - would've been 75 feet, but a palm tree was in the way. Now when I was back in CONUS I was working with Treadstone (shhhh!) and had my trusty 229 in 357 Sig. I had to put a round in a crazed assassin. That BG literally exploaded! I also ruined a new Brooks Brother's suit from all the powder burns. So I'd say, both will get the job done, if you can handle the awesomeness of the rounds.

You're mistakenly giving credit to your equipment. It was your resolve and steely-eyed glare that got the job done.

quote:

Originally posted by LINVS:
Now, that's a hard one. It's pretty much a wash. I mean, back in the sandbox, I hit a tango at 200 yards, with my 1911, square in the chest hand he flew 50 feet - would've been 75 feet, but a palm tree was in the way. Now when I was back in CONUS I was working with Treadstone (shhhh!) and had my trusty 229 in 357 Sig. I had to put a round in a crazed assassin. That BG literally exploaded! I also ruined a new Brooks Brother's suit from all the powder burns. So I'd say, both will get the job done, if you can handle the awesomeness of the rounds.

Now that's what I like about Internet forums. You get unbiased, well-documented evidence as opposed to subjective testimony, hearsay, and questionable sources. Thank God the OP's question has been emphatically answered and we can lay this thread to rest.

quote:

Originally posted by jezsuiz:
So if you hit someone in the brain or spine with either will it make a difference?

And can you do that, every time, while you & your target are moving & under duress &, oh yeah, low light? I doubt it very, very much. So caliber & bullet does matter because while shot placement is king, you'll likely never acheive perfect shot placement in a gunfight.

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:

quote:

Originally posted by jezsuiz:
So if you hit someone in the brain or spine with either will it make a difference?

And can you do that, every time, while you & your target are moving & under duress &, oh yeah, low light? I doubt it very, very much. So caliber & bullet does matter because while shot placement is king, you'll likely never acheive perfect shot placement in a gunfight.

YES I could but that wasnt the question was it?

All else being equal, the .357 SIG will reach that vital area before the .45 ACP round will...so I guess it's a faster incapacitation?

quote:

Originally posted by jezsuiz:

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:

quote:

Originally posted by jezsuiz:
So if you hit someone in the brain or spine with either will it make a difference?

And can you do that, every time, while you & your target are moving & under duress &, oh yeah, low light? I doubt it very, very much. So caliber & bullet does matter because while shot placement is king, you'll likely never acheive perfect shot placement in a gunfight.

YES I could but that wasnt the question was it?

No it wasn't but then again your answer wasn't to the question either. So do tell us your exp. level that allows such fenominal shooting?

EXP. level???? Just practice,practice,practice
(phenominal)
And the question was the awnswer?