What 9mm round is the best for barrier penetration such as car doors, wood, auto glass? Would a +p round be any more beneficial?
January 12, 2020, 01:22 PM
odin
Don't have any specific data or source reflecting this opinion, but I would say a 147gr bullet (+P) would be preferable.
January 12, 2020, 01:26 PM
gpbst3
quote:
Originally posted by odin: Don't have any specific data or source reflecting this opinion, but I would say a 147gr bullet (+P) would be preferable.
Hollow point, ball?
January 12, 2020, 01:35 PM
sigfreund
Experiments have demonstrated that hollow point handgun bullets perforate windshield glass better than FMJ. The former tend to deform to the glass surface rather than glancing off as can sometimes (not always, of course) FMJ.
It’s an interesting commentary on the spread of the idiotic “all handgun cartridges perform the same” notion that we would even wonder for a second if more power was better for penetration, but yes, +P would be better. That assumes, of course, that the +P rating actually means more power; it doesn’t always. A couple of loads in which it does are the Gold Dot 124 grain +P and the Winchester Ranger 127 grain +P+ load.
I haven’t performed any windshield or auto sheet metal penetration experiments with 9mm, but in 357 SIG, Gold Dot bullets went through windshields far better with much less point of aim to point of impact deviation than 45 ACP FMJ. I suspect that Gold Dot or another bonded bullet design would be best in 9mm as well. I would look at kinetic energy figures, but I would probably avoid 115 grain loads for the purpose.
And FWIW, when a full power 357 SIG load from a 4.4" P226 does not perforate auto sheet metal very well, no 9mm load will do any better.
► 6.4/93.6
“Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.” — Plato
January 12, 2020, 10:17 PM
CD228
I'd check out the ballistic data on the ATK LE website. The FBI protocol tests might be useful, particularly the auto glass and sheet metal tests.. You can also look up Dr Roberts comments on line.
January 20, 2020, 02:10 PM
EasyFire
quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund: Experiments have demonstrated that hollow point handgun bullets perforate windshield glass better than FMJ. The former tend to deform to the glass surface rather than glancing off as can sometimes (not always, of course) FMJ.
It’s an interesting commentary on the spread of the idiotic “all handgun cartridges perform the same” notion that we would even wonder for a second if more power was better for penetration, but yes, +P would be better. That assumes, of course, that the +P rating actually means more power; it doesn’t always. A couple of loads in which it does are the Gold Dot 124 grain +P and the Winchester Ranger 127 grain +P+ load.
I haven’t performed any windshield or auto sheet metal penetration experiments with 9mm, but in 357 SIG, Gold Dot bullets went through windshields far better with much less point of aim to point of impact deviation than 45 ACP FMJ. I suspect that Gold Dot or another bonded bullet design would be best in 9mm as well. I would look at kinetic energy figures, but I would probably avoid 115 grain loads for the purpose.
And FWIW, when a full power 357 SIG load from a 4.4" P226 does not perforate auto sheet metal very well, no 9mm load will do any better.
Referencing Fort Scott Munitions 9mm Spun copper cartridges with patented Tumble Upon Impact bullet. Looks like it took a rifle plate to stop penetration on body armor. See video > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0sSr5EUW7w Windshield and auto sheet metal tests were not found. As per the videos, it did not appear excessive penetration in 10% box gel tests. I also do not place God’s Truth in YouTube videos.
_____________________________ "A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." George Washington.
This Lehigh Defense bullet gets rave reviews for penetration, maybe even to much. They sell the bullets & some companies have loaded ammo.
July 23, 2020, 05:19 PM
RHINOWSO
I'm a fan of Federal HST 147gr +P.
July 23, 2020, 06:13 PM
Wolfpacker
357 Sig 125 gr.?This message has been edited. Last edited by: Wolfpacker,
July 23, 2020, 07:43 PM
mrapteam666
When I arrived at my first agency in Jan 2002, I was a brand new rookie and issued a Beretta 92 with three magazines and quite a few boxes of 147 grain JHP in 9mm. (I cannot remember if they were Federal or Winchester).
Our training NCO at the time, (who was a retired SF Weapons Specialist) took all the new rookies to the range and demonstrated the effectiveness of the ammo we carried. Throughout the day we shot through phone books, car windshields, door panels etc..
He wanted us to have confidence in the ammo we carried because besides working routine patrol our our duties also included working access control points to the Capitol, various government buildings plus the Virginia Governors Mansion. We were also tasked with driving/escorting the various Senators during special sessions and the General Assembly.
To this day my favorite ammo is 147 grain JHP manufactured by either Federal or Winchester. The only reason I have a lot of 124 grain and 115 grain is because I got such great deals on them.This message has been edited. Last edited by: mrapteam666,
July 24, 2020, 01:42 PM
MikeinNC
Speer Gold Dot in 9mm 124gr is what I used as a cop In my off duty gun (G19), it went thru auto glass fine.
My duty gun was a P226 in 357SIG, 125 gr. It too went thru cars and glass well.
Most cars are thin as a beer can, unless you hit a brace or other stuff like window track, bullets go thru cars easy peasy. The only “cover” a car provides is behind the wheels and behind the engine block.
"Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.” Robert A. Heinlein
“You may beat me, but you will never win.” sigmonkey-2020
“A single round of buckshot to the torso almost always results in an immediate change of behavior.” Chris Baker
July 24, 2020, 05:10 PM
mrapteam666
MikeinNC
Thanks for posting the link.
I swore I had that link on this new computer but it must be on my old one.
Talk about information overload on one page. It is the perfect visual aid.
July 24, 2020, 08:27 PM
Tonydec
It's been pretty much covered, but in agreement on the fact that bonded bullets generally perform better, especially through auto glass. This is based on the FBI tests and personal calibrated ballistics gel testing for my PD (Now retired).
Tony
August 12, 2020, 01:40 AM
blueinterceptor
Check out hornady 135gr critical duty Check you tube for videos
September 09, 2020, 11:07 PM
Kobren
Look for Hirtenberger 9mm +P+ 100gr soft point ammo used by Austrian Border Police in their Glocks for penetrating vehicle glass sheet metal.
September 10, 2020, 08:51 AM
RogueJSK
quote:
Originally posted by MikeinNC: The only “cover” a car provides is behind the wheels and behind the engine block.
And behind the vertical support pillars, which you can "stack" side-by-side to provide extra protection as well. They'll even stop rifle bullets.
(Check out William Petty's "Vehicle CQB" course, if you get a chance. Or at least check out his data, which he'll send to you if you're LE. I think there are even some brief video overviews available online. VCQB is a great deep dive into optimal tactics for when fighting in/around a vehicle, and how bullets of various calibers behave when interacting with different parts of an automobile.)
