If I train with blazer 115gr and then use 124gs gold dot wont the difference in the bullets performance mean that the training is semi wasted.

IE I think that p+ will shoot higher...????

I have read that using 147g non p+ will shoot the same as 115 g blazer....is this true or irrelevant???

I think it is common sense to practice with cheaper ammo. You still need to occasionally shoot the self defense rounds while practicing to ensure function and that you maintain proper technique, but I don't/can't afford to do it very often. I haven't noticed much of a difference in POI.

I shoot blazer aluminum 115 grain and carry 124+P Gold Dots. The Gold Dots are a bit hotter, but practice is practice and I don't think practicing with the 115 gr puts you at any disadvantage.

Is there a difference between Blazer 115 grain FMJ and 124 grain +P? Of course.

The power factor is a convenient way of comparing felt recoil in similar guns. From a P229, the PF of the 115 is about 129 and of the +P 124 is about 149, or over 15% greater. Then there's the muzzle blast which will be more noticeable from the hotter round. I can't recall the precise velocity of the standard pressure 124 grain Gold Dot, but IIRC its PF is about 139 and obviously closer to the 115 FMJ.

According to the Speer ballistics chart, the velocity of the standard pressure 147 grain Gold Dot is 985 fps from a 4 inch barrel. That would make its power factor about 145, or almost as great as the 124 +P. Its muzzle blast might be less, but felt recoil would be about the same.

All that being said, is it a waste of time or worse to practice with 115 Blazer while carrying 124, especially +P? No.

I carry a P229 chambered for 357 SIG and routinely practice with 45 ACP and hot 40 S&W loads in other SIGs. The recoil of all that ammunition is significantly greater than any 9mm I've ever used. I also go through a ton of 115 grain FMJ and that practice benefits me as well—despite the fact that I don't even carry a 9mm.

The recoil and muzzle blast difference between hot and mild 9mm ammunition simply isn't that great. I would shoot a little of the SD from time to time (maybe a magazine full every few range sessions), but otherwise I wouldn't worry about it. What's important is that you practice.

thanks..this is really great forum...with really helpful members...

IIRC, Speer advertises that its Lawman brand of range ammo has the same (or at least darn close) ballistics to its Gold Dot line.

Lawman is more expensive than WWB or Blazer, but it's good ammo. It shoots well and is fairly clean. It comes up on deals/specials every so often if you look for it.

Best of luck.

cc

In a "typical" defensive scenario, the 2-3" difference in POI between brand X and brand Y isn't going to make a major difference within typical defensive ranges.

My Smith 36 is what I carry most of the time. I practice with WWB 130 grain ball and keep it stoked with Speer 135 +P Gold Dots. Yeah, there's a difference in point of impact but nothing I'd lose sleep over.

In my Walther P99 I use Speer Lawman 124 gr. for practice. For self defense with that pistol I use Speer Gold Dots in 124 gr. +P. I don't feel or see a whole lot of difference between the two.

I shoot a bit,if you are a shooter and any good you know to go back to basic's on quality ammo,correct grip breathing and get real serious ..Plink is a different matter.premium ammo should put on high alert like your life depends on it.That is a way I approach it.

We plow through thousand of rounds of aluminum Blazer in training. I'm pretty confident that if I switched up loads on the shooters without them knowing it, they'd never be able to tell the difference.

Quality practice is quality practice. You'd have to be wicked finicky to notice any difference, at least in defensive shooting practice and training. And given that Blazer is less expensive, you can do more training than you could with the higher cost ammo, so you'll be ahead of the curve.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
Is there a difference between Blazer 115 grain FMJ and 124 grain +P? Of course.

The power factor is a convenient way of comparing felt recoil in similar guns. From a P229, the PF of the 115 is about 129 and of the +P 124 is about 149, or over 15% greater. Then there's the muzzle blast which will be more noticeable from the hotter round. I can't recall the precise velocity of the standard pressure 124 grain Gold Dot, but IIRC its PF is about 139 and obviously closer to the 115 FMJ.

According to the Speer ballistics chart, the velocity of the standard pressure 147 grain Gold Dot is 985 fps from a 4 inch barrel. That would make its power factor about 145, or almost as great as the 124 +P. Its muzzle blast might be less, but felt recoil would be about the same.

All that being said, is it a waste of time or worse to practice with 115 Blazer while carrying 124, especially +P? No.

I carry a P229 chambered for 357 SIG and routinely practice with 45 ACP and hot 40 S&W loads in other SIGs. The recoil of all that ammunition is significantly greater than any 9mm I've ever used. I also go through a ton of 115 grain FMJ and that practice benefits me as well—despite the fact that I don't even carry a 9mm.

The recoil and muzzle blast difference between hot and mild 9mm ammunition simply isn't that great. I would shoot a little of the SD from time to time (maybe a magazine full every few range sessions), but otherwise I wouldn't worry about it. What's important is that you practice.

So would you feel the same Sigfreund if I stuck a 22 conversion barrel on a 226 and practiced with that instead of the 9mm? Would practice still be practice then? And BTW, I carry .357Sig as well

quote:

Originally posted by GrandPotter:
So would you feel the same Sigfreund if I stuck a 22 conversion barrel on a 226 and practiced with that instead of the 9mm? Would practice still be practice then? And BTW, I carry .357Sig as well

I don't know for certain. If SIG ever releases a .22 mod kit for the P229, I hope to determine for myself how much difference there is between 22 LR and a centerfire cartridge like the 9mm. I anticipate, however, that it will still be useful.

Like the answers to many simple questions, a complete examination of the answer to this is long and complicated, and it boils down to the "argument of the beard" that students of logic discuss.
Just as there's no way to draw a clear line between how many whiskers make up a beard (5 is too few, 100,000 is plenty, but what about 50000 and 50001), where do we draw the line with this question?

With handguns, there are several possible significant differences among various models: revolver/autoloading pistol; overall weight; balance; grip size, shape, and texture; trigger position; trigger mode (DA/SA, SAO, DAK ...); slide weight (its effect on muzzle flip); sight radius; sight styles and colors; cartridge characteristics (recoil and noise).

Practicing with my airsoft P226 gives me some useful experience, but it's certainly not like shooting a P226 chambered for 9mm. I would never expect shooting an airsoft gun only to make me proficient with a real gun because although there are some similarities, the differences are too great. But how about a genuine P226 with a .22 conversion kit?

The most important factor in shooting accuracy is trigger control (no, it's not the only one, it's just the most important). That's why dry-firing guns like 226s and 229s pays such dividends even though there's no muzzle blast or recoil at all. On the other hand, shooting my S&W model 41 pistols doesn't do much, if anything, for my 229 proficiency. That's not because of the difference in recoil and muzzle blast, but because their triggers are so different.

That's why I was so interested in the .22 conversion kits: one will allow me to use the trigger system that I'm accustomed to in a gun that handles and feels much the same as my carry guns. For me that's a DAK trigger in a 229 frame. The Mosquito just wasn't that. Dry-firing is good, but it's boring and unsatisfying for me. I therefore don't spend the time at it I should. Even with light recoil and little noise, however, I expect shooting a .22 conversion to be more fun and therefore more useful. When firing at multiple targets at different ranges, it will also be more realistic and provide better feedback regarding my accuracy than dry-firing.

To return to the question of how many whiskers make a beard and the differences among various handgun cartridges, my original answer pertained to the original question: the differences between shooting light 9mm Blazer ammo and hotter Gold Dot. My answer was, "The recoil and muzzle blast difference between hot and mild 9mm ammunition simply isn't that great" [emphasis added]. That's not true of other kinds of ammo, and a very clear example is full-power 357 Magnum loads and 38 Special target stuff.

When revolvers were the standard handgun for law enforcement officers, there was a time when many agencies issued 357 Magnum ammunition for duty carry and used 38 Special wadcutters for qualification and practice. When instructors and range masters began making officers qualify with the 357 stuff, however, scores plummeted. The difference in recoil and muzzle blast was simply too great for most people who were accustomed to mild 38 to handle the 357 well. There isn't that degree of difference, though, between hot and mild 9mm loads.

Controlling and tolerating the recoil and noise of a 9mm SIG is pretty easy for most shooters, especially adult males. Doing the same with a P220 while using Gold Dot 200 grain +P ammo, isn't so easy, but few people limit their shooting to that combination.

Some differences matter a lot; some don't. I hope to find that the differences in shooting a .22 conversion with my SIGs won't be so great as to make it worthless.

i also aawit the frame to match my .22lr conversion kit...i know, i'm ass-backwards

since i'm shooting a DA/SA ST, i'm looking forward to working on my trigger prep without having to manually cycle the slide between SA shots

I practice/training I use blazer AU. Gold Dots +p for when it counts. Is there a difference in recoil. Yes but the real issue is learning to shoot properly. The sights will come back on target with both ammo. The sight on target should trigger you to pull the trigger.

If I only shoot the good stuff my training rounds would decrease drastically because of cost.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
...my original answer pertained to the original question: the differences between shooting light 9mm Blazer ammo and hotter Gold Dot. My answer was, "The recoil and muzzle blast difference between hot and mild 9mm ammunition simply isn't that great" [emphasis added].

[and]

Controlling and tolerating the recoil and noise of a 9mm SIG is pretty easy for most shooters, especially adult males. Doing the same with a P220 while using Gold Dot 200 grain +P ammo, isn't so easy, but few people limit their shooting to that combination.

As a medium term shooter (weekly for a couple of years) I would second that. I often shoot cheap, lower power ammo as a way to make practicing more affordable. I compliment that every few trips with a box of Lawman or Fiocchi 1350fps and every once in a while JHP defense ammo. There is a noticeable difference in recoil and muzzle flip with the hotter ammo but it is perfectly manageable. Shooting the higher power ammo makes me more confident about the Gold Dot or other JHP carry loads. I know what to expect.

Since i have a 229 I can also practice with 9mm and carry .40 if i choose. Again, shooting both helps train some muscles on trigger control while training other muscles and my brain on the recoil of the higher power ammo. imho all trainin is beneficial. If you shoot multiple kinds of ammo train enough to be comfortable with the differences.

Practicing with cheap 9mm ammo is very valuable practice for using expensive 9mm ammo for defense. As Sigfruend noted, the differences between the two aren't very great.

Can a P6 handle SPEER GD 124 +P?