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posted
If in a HD scenario, where say there was a home invasion and thugs were wearing body armor, what .223 ammo would you recommend? This would be assuming use of an AR with a 1:8 twist and a 14.5" or 16" barrel.

The M855 would probably work well, but is there something better? What about a solid copper bullet, as like something from Barnes? Barnes does have a 55 grain Tac-X that would have a muzzle velocity of close to 3,100 fps, but the petals open up. I wonder if they would cut through soft body armor. I should add, some perps could wear SAPI plates, so am thinking about that as well.

I have read the other ammo threads at least twice each, but have not reached a conclusion.
http://sigforum.com/eve/forums...0601935/m/2400027424


-c1steve
 
Posts: 1898 | Location: West coast | Registered: March 31, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Unmanned Writer
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My understanding in .223 at that range goes through body armor.







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Posts: 8576 | Location: It was Lat: 33.xxxx Lon: 44.xxxx now it's CA :( | Registered: March 22, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fighting the good fight
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Nearly any .223 (barring something like frangible ammo or a thin-walled varmit load) will defeat soft body armor, which is designed to protect against handgun rounds.

But no .223 will defeat Level IV steel/ceramic hard body armor, which is designed to protect against full-power armor-piercing rifle rounds.

As a result, I wouldn't be concerned about keeping a certain load specifically for trying to defeat body armor. Go with one of the quality defensive loads, which will work well against unarmored threats and threats wearing soft body armor. And if you run into a situation with a bad guy wearing hard plates, aim for the head or pelvis.

But the likelihood of that occurring is extremely minimal.
 
Posts: 19239 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Avoiding
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I am certain I live in a much worse neighbor hood than O P,hell its the hood.
My go to is an 870 with some fine buckshot rounds
like # 4.along with the 5 7 28 that is loaded with penetrators.
These thugs only carry a stolen forty around here. Wink
 
Posts: 21206 | Location: Georgia | Registered: February 19, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thanks for the replies. These ideas make sense. Quality .223 and aim for the head if needed. I also have an 870, but loaded with 00 buckshot. I am sure it works, but is a bit tough on my shoulder when at the range. I should try #4 or #2.

What about a 6.8 upper? Some of the rounds would have a muzzle velocity of 2,900. Is the 6.8 capable of penetrating hard plates at close range?


-c1steve
 
Posts: 1898 | Location: West coast | Registered: March 31, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fighting the good fight
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quote:
Originally posted by c1steve:
Is the 6.8 capable of penetrating hard plates at close range?


No. Level IV hard plates are designed to withstand .30-06 M2 AP rounds with hardened steel penetrator cores. No standard ammo in any normal defensive caliber will penetrate.

You'd need an extremely high velocity cartridge like a long-range magnum round (.338 Lapua, etc.) or .50 BMG, or something rare like tungsten-core ammo or armor-piercing incendiary ammo. None of those are feasible for home defense use.

The good news is that hard plates only protect part of the torso. And as mentioned previously, the chances of running into a bad guy toting hard plates is extremely minimal.

Use standard defensive ammo. Aim for center mass. Switch to the pelvis or head if you're not getting effective hits. (You can practice that last part with "Failure to Stop drills".)
 
Posts: 19239 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by RogueJSK:
No. Level IV hard plates are designed to withstand .30-06 M2 AP rounds with hardened steel penetrator cores. No standard ammo in any normal defensive caliber will penetrate.

You'd need an extremely high velocity cartridge like a long-range magnum round (.338 Lapua, etc.) or .50 BMG, or something rare like tungsten-core ammo or armor-piercing incendiary ammo. None of those are feasible for home defense use.


Ceramic plates also crack/dust, so repeated hits with marginal calibers will compromise the armor.

Yes, for a one-shot penetration you need to overmatch the armor, but for repeated hits to the same area, there are no guarantees after the first hit.

Plate armor is a relatively rare commodity. If anything, criminals with no training are likely to be armored with IIIA soft armor at best. If you are dealing with someone who knows to use plate armor and carriers, then you're probably dealing with someone who is ex-military, police or has that level of training or at least awareness. That would have other troubling implications (like them using a more than just pistol-caliber rounds on you).
 
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Law enforcement armor gets replaced by agencies all the time. After so many years of daily use and sweat, the material is compromised and needs replacement. Cloth carriers got replaced annually but the armor panels were replaced every 3-4 years. My former agency provided a % of the total cost to replace with new. If the armor is personally owned as mine was, it's up to the officer to dispose of it when the armor expires. You often see those on craigslist.

The bad guy may buy years old armor that is no better than an old flannel shirt. Razz


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Posts: 7788 | Location: Somewhere north of a hot humid hell in the summer. | Registered: January 09, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hearts and Minds.

Two to the chest....NO effect? Go for a head shot.
 
Posts: 5249 | Location: Craig, MT | Registered: December 17, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fighting the good fight
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quote:
Originally posted by az4783054:
After so many years of daily use and sweat, the material is compromised and needs replacement.


That's true of soft armor panels (handgun armor), but hard armor plates (rifle armor) doesn't go bad.

Especially steel plates. Ceramic plates can be compromised through rough handling/dropping, though.

Most hard plates will have an expiration date, but that's more of a CYA thing for the manufacturer than an indication of actual decreased protection capability.

quote:
Originally posted by az4783054:
The bad guy may buy years old armor that is no better than an old flannel shirt.


I'm sure there's some degradation over time to the effectiveness of the Kevlar threads, but I've tested soft armor vests that were years past their expiration dates that still stopped handgun rounds.

That's not to say that soft armor can't go bad, especially if exposed to serious abuse. More that with normal use and storage, there's probably not a dramatic decrease in protection at the 5 year mark. (or 10... or 15...)
 
Posts: 19239 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Constable
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We tested some 5 year old armor , against 1 yr old...with normal handgun rds and the used/older panels didn't perform much worse than the year old panel.

Our testing was FAR from Scientific...just shot a few panels. But if they say it degrades I'd believe the manufacturers.

I see really old panels/carriers for sale at gun shows occasionally. Better than nothing I guess.
 
Posts: 5249 | Location: Craig, MT | Registered: December 17, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thanks for the replies. I will plan on multiple hits to the torso, and then switch to the head and pelvis if necessary. I suspect most criminals are not well prepared and expect a soft target. If they carefully thought things through, they would choose another career.


-c1steve
 
Posts: 1898 | Location: West coast | Registered: March 31, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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.223 will penetrate level III steel at close range. m855 will not. It's all about velocity. .223 approaching or exceeding 3200fps will do the job.



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Posts: 4415 | Location: Shenandoah Valley, VA | Registered: November 05, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Consider pelvis / upper thighs.

Shotgun / .223 at HD distance striking there would be devastating.

The vessels going from the upper thigh into the pelvis are massive.

--------------------------


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Listen to RogueJSK. He knows.




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Posts: 37355 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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RogueJSK,

In general I suspect that you would probably choose a 55 or lighter grain to achieve high velocity. Any particular styles/brands to avoid, or that you prefer?


-c1steve
 
Posts: 1898 | Location: West coast | Registered: March 31, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I actually prefer 62/64 grain loads, but I would have no issue using 55 grain loads too. You won't find many defensive loads lighter than 55 grains. Ultra-light .223 rounds are typically varmint loads, which are not a good choice for defensive use (very shallow penetration and excessively easy fragmentation).

Speer Gold Dots are my choice for defensive use. They perform very well in testing, and use bonded soft points, so will work better through intermediate barriers than a standard soft point.

However, there are a number of other good options as well. I'd recommend reading up on Doctor Gary Roberts' ballistic testing and recommendations for .223/5.56 defensive loads: https://www.ar15.com/ammo/proj..._FAQ/#mozTocId803443
 
Posts: 19239 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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My thought was if they have armor, shoot them in the head. If that's too hard, shoot them in the wiener. I've seen some very tough mean men ball up in a fetal from being nipped in the cods.


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Posts: 5264 | Location: BPensacola, Florida | Registered: September 28, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fighting the good fight
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It's not necessarily the "wiener" that you're aiming for when shooting at the pelvis. The pelvis is a major load-bearing structure of the body. If it is broken, the bad guy cannot stand. Plus, as mentioned by Sig209, there are a number of large veins and arteries in the pelvic area. As a result, pelvic hits should be more effective than hits to limbs.

In addition, much like the torso, the pelvis doesn't move around nearly as much as the limbs or the head. Therefore, a pelvic hit should be a bit easier to make than a hit to the head.
 
Posts: 19239 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by RogueJSK:
It's not necessarily the "wiener" that you're aiming for when shooting at the pelvis. The pelvis is a major load-bearing structure of the body. If it is broken, the bad guy cannot stand. Plus, as mentioned by Sig209, there are a number of large veins and arteries in the pelvic area. As a result, pelvic hits should be more effective than hits to limbs.

In addition, much like the torso, the pelvis doesn't move around nearly as much as the limbs or the head. Therefore, a pelvic hit should be a bit easier to make than a hit to the head.


Indeed. And depending on what armor is being utilized, there is still "soft" areas that are around the belt line and slightlyabove. The wider area of the Abdomen/Pelvis is what has introduced me to alternating my "failure drills" at the range to include going down south for pelvic girdle as another viable option.

Worst case too, is even if your rounds are impacting armor low (and still above the desired pelvic area) you're still putting energy on the target to cause something of a distracting or stunning effect even without penetration.


This is a very interesting conversation.

Thank you for your contributions RogueJSK!


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