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Get my pies
outta the oven!

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I used to recommend the Remington Golden Saber .380 but now recommend Hornday Critical Defense .380

Works very well in my CW380 and has excellent reviews:



 
Posts: 25854 | Location: Pennsylvania | Registered: November 12, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
always with a hat or sunscreen
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JHP: any loading using Hornady XTP 90gr bullets (Fiocchi Extrema, Hornady, Freedom Munitions, etc.)
FMJ-FN: Winchester Q4206 95gr flat nose / truncated cone

Warm weather I go with the JHP. In colder where a perp will be wearing heavy layers I prefer the FMJ-FN for its greater penetration.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: bald1,



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Posts: 10287 | Location: Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: June 20, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by bald1:
<snip>
Warm weather I go with the JHP. In colder where a perp will be wearing heavy layers I prefer the FMJ-FN for its greater penetration.

Many of the JHP ammo reviews have penetration results for bare gelatin and also gelatin covered by several layers of heavy denim. Penetration is often greater for the heavy denim case because the denim clogs the hollow point, which tends to reduce hydrodynamic expansion. Automatic compensation for the shielding effect of heavy clothing.



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Posts: 5237 | Location: San Diego | Registered: July 26, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
always with a hat or sunscreen
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quote:
Originally posted by Pipe Smoker:
quote:
Originally posted by bald1:
<snip>
Warm weather I go with the JHP. In colder where a perp will be wearing heavy layers I prefer the FMJ-FN for its greater penetration.

Many of the JHP ammo reviews have penetration results for bare gelatin and also gelatin covered by several layers of heavy denim. Penetration is often greater for the heavy denim case because the denim clogs the hollow point, which tends to reduce hydrodynamic expansion. Automatic compensation for the shielding effect of heavy clothing.


No question but in these parts a few layers of denim doesn't cut it in the winter. We're talking a hell of a lot more clothing to ward against the cold and wind. The flatnose does very well with this challenge. Better than the clogged JHP.



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Posts: 10287 | Location: Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: June 20, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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^^^^^^^^
When I lived in Minnesota, the most common cold weather clothing was a down jacket, maybe with a wool sweater underneath. I wonder how the shielding effect of that compares to several layers of heavy denim.

Also, I’m curious to know of your evidence for your assertion that “The flatnose does very well with this challenge. Better than the clogged JHP.” Not doubting that it exists, just wondering where you found it.

Not such a problem here in San Diego. Smile



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Posts: 5237 | Location: San Diego | Registered: July 26, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by bald1:
JHP: any loading using Hornady XTP 90gr bullets (Fiocchi Extrema, Hornady, Freedom Munitions, etc.)
FMJ-FN: Winchester Q4206 95gr flat nose / truncated cone

Warm weather I go with the JHP. In colder where a perp will be wearing heavy layers I prefer the FMJ-FN for its greater penetration.


I recently read a very compelling article that the LAPD found that the flat nose .380 performed terribly, but the round nosed .380 would quickly tumble, and create much larger wound tracks. 95 grain FMJ is one of their recommended duty loads in .380 caliber guns as a result.

A clogged JHP is just going to act like a FMJ and penetrate deep. No need for choosing flat nose FMJ in the winter.


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Posts: 5535 | Location: Floriduh | Registered: October 16, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Uppity Helot
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Silvertip or XTP
 
Posts: 1884 | Location: Manheim, PA | Registered: September 04, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
always with a hat or sunscreen
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quote:
Originally posted by Pipe Smoker:
I’m curious to know of your evidence for your assertion that “The flatnose does very well with this challenge. Better than the clogged JHP.” Not doubting that it exists, just wondering where you found it.


I will admit that my research that compelled my selection of the FN/JHP against heavy clothing was made just after I bought my P238 which was back in 2010. I'd have to dig to find the articles / test results. If memory serves the keys were penetration and tumbling wound channels.

Did a quick search and found this as an example https://mousegunaddict.blogspo...othing-terminal.html It refers to this which is also interesting: http://mousegunaddict.blogspot...t-wound-channel.html

Q4206 penetration vs Ranger T JHP:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Ba...istic%20Gelatin.html


Shooting The Bull is often cited as a good review of 380 ammo which touts the XTP loads
http://shootingthebull.net/blo...-380-acp-ammo-quest/




quote:
Originally posted by bubbatime:
I recently read a very compelling article that the LAPD found that the flat nose .380 performed terribly, but the round nosed .380 would quickly tumble, and create much larger wound tracks. 95 grain FMJ is one of their recommended duty loads in .380 caliber guns as a result.



bubbatime, any chance you can share a link to that article? The one I cited above shows that FN/FMJ rounds tumble too with comparable wound channels.



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Posts: 10287 | Location: Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: June 20, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by bald1:

quote:
Originally posted by bubbatime:
I recently read a very compelling article that the LAPD found that the flat nose .380 performed terribly, but the round nosed .380 would quickly tumble, and create much larger wound tracks. 95 grain FMJ is one of their recommended duty loads in .380 caliber guns as a result.



bubbatime, any chance you can share a link to that article? The one I cited above shows that FN/FMJ rounds tumble too with comparable wound channels.


Found it here:

http://www.marksmanshipmatters...munition-comparison/


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Posts: 5535 | Location: Floriduh | Registered: October 16, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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From the article bubbatime linked:

We have concluded that Full Metal Jacket .380 ammunition will always achieve at least 16 inches of penetration in gel with 4 layers of denim and will penetrate intermediate barriers better than .380 Jacketed Hollow Points.

Shots with the Winchester flat point bullet achieved more penetration than any of the other .380 loads that we included in this article despite the relatively low velocity. We believe that this occurred because neither of these bullets tumbled. Tumbling often occurs with .380 FMJ bullets but less frequently with flat nose bullets.


From articles I linked:

Remington 95 Grain Flat Nose
Velocity < 850 fps Tumbled Penetration < 18"

What was very interesting to me was the large permanent wound channel I found in the Remington Leadless Flat Point test block starting at about 4 inches into the block. While I had to carve a bit of SIM-TEST away from the site to find it, I did not create the cavity, but only exposed it by removing an extra bit of media. This wound channel looked much larger and much more permanent than the channel caused by the 380 JHP that failed to expand last weekend. I have to assume this was caused by the flat point profile of the Remington bullet tested today.

===============================================================

So obviously there is a difference of opinion on whether the flat point FMJ 380 ammo tumbles or not with a corresponding large wound channel.

My money is on YES it tumbles and provides a wound channel significantly larger that the bullet's diameter.
It does a better job on intermediate barriers and very heavy clothing than a JHP that fails to expand (plugged).



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Posts: 10287 | Location: Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: June 20, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I'm a little late to this thread it appears, but I used Remington Gold Saber 102gr JHPs in my Sig P232 when we were still authorized to carry it as a bug and off-duty. It worked pretty well for our officers that had to use it over a 15year period. Now days I have a Glock 42 as a micro carry gun and I prefer Federal 99gr HSTs.

Sure, none of these loads meet the FBI minimum penetration level standards, but as a up close and personal pistol for gym short type carry it meets my satisfaction.
 
Posts: 544 | Location: Saint Louis | Registered: June 13, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
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Fiocchi XTP.

Yes, 380 ain't the best, or even highly recommended.

But it's a million times better than harsh language.
 
Posts: 43929 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

...Yes, 380 ain't the best, or even highly recommended.

But it's a million times better than harsh language.


Yep. And the LCP disappears in my pocket. With Hornady XTPs.
 
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