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and this little pig said:
posted
Not to derail the thread on match-grade 9mm ammo, I have a question regarding match-grade barrels.

To get the most out of match-grade ammo, wouldn't the pistol be better off having a match-grade barrel?

You might ask yourself if there is a difference between a "regular" barrel and a match-grade barrel. In my experience, I have a Springfield Armory XDm in .40S&W. I reload .40S&W and can tell you that, even if my reloads pass the case gauge test and all of the dimensions measurable are within spec, some reloads do not fit into the match-grade chamber. They will fit into my other .40S&W pistols flawlessly.

I can't attest to the accuracy of the pistol, however. I might have to experiment with that using a rest. Most of my shooting is done off-hand and the accuracy is directly proportional to how many cups of coffee I've had before shooting! LOL
 
Posts: 2963 | Registered: February 07, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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quote:
Originally posted by odin:
I can't attest to the accuracy of the pistol, however.


I will be curious about the responses to your question, but I believe that that statement is really the alpha and omega of the issue of handgun accuracy* these days. When I saw a recent thread asking how accurate different varieties of the SIG P210 pistol were, my first thought was to wonder if accuracy currently really matters to more than a small minority of shooters. Yes, it’s nice to have an impressively-small group that we can hang on display or show to our friends, but how much does high handgun accuracy really matter from a practical standpoint?

At one time there were popular shooting disciplines that demanded a high level of inherent handgun accuracy, for example metallic silhouette and traditional bull’s-eye. A revolver capable of putting all its shots into the 2×3" B-27 X-ring at 50 yards would have been highly sought after by a top level PPC shooter. But we don’t hear much about such shooting sports in recent times, so how accurate, or inaccurate, does a pistol have to be before it becomes important to most shooters?

The difference between a rifle that is capable of 1 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards versus 1" (or smaller) matters a lot to a Precision Rifle Series competitor, but how often is the difference between a pistol that’s capable of 1 inch at 25 yards versus 1 1/2 inch really significant? How many shooters are skilled enough to take advantage of the one over the other?

Years ago when I got my first sight pusher tool I spent a lot of time and suffered a lot of frustration trying to get various SIG pistols zeroed precisely. It was then I discovered, among other things, that the points of impact of different loads varied not only in elevation but also side to side windage. Even the time of day and the direction of the sunlight had a practical effect on POI when using iron sights. In time I realized that the small variances among different guns, cartridges, and loads didn’t matter at all for the type of shooting I was doing that was focused on relatively close distance, high speed self-defense training.

Handgun accuracy is still important to some shooters, but I really wonder to how many, and more important, whether it is a significant practical matter or simply about personal pride and satisfaction.

* The distinction between precision and accuracy has become a thing for some shooters, but here I’ll stick with the traditional meaning of accuracy which refers to the inherent ability of the firearm and ammunition to produce small groups.




“A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.”
— Simon & Garfunkel, The Boxer, 1970
 
Posts: 41454 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Good post sigfreund. I agree with what you said. There are so many variable when it comes to shooting a pistol that nothing can be set in stone.

I keep notes on each individual pistol, load etc, and proceed from there. I do not look for or expect the same performance or consistency from a handgun that I expect from a rifle.

And odin an accurate barrel does make a difference....depending on the ammo.
 
Posts: 82 | Location: SE PA | Registered: January 22, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Nullus Anxietas
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I have only one target pistol: My Sig P210A. Ok, two, if you count my Ruger Mk. I, which, while it doesn't have the bull barrel, I believe is a "target" model. Other than those two, I'm only interested in "minute of bad guy" accuracy.

Sure, if one of my handguns is consistently printing high, low, left or right, with a variety of ammo, I'll correct it. But, truth be known: Minor inaccuracy in a SD situation is going to matter far less than my own ability under pressure.

One of my best friends sent his P220 out to have a match barrel custom fitted and other tune-ups. Did some reloading. In the end he felt none of that resulted in a significant improvement. And he's the best shot I've ever known.




"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
The dominant media is no more "mainstream" than leftists are liberals.
 
Posts: 17622 | Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
and this little pig said:
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quote:
One of my best friends sent his P220 out to have a match barrel custom fitted and other tune-ups


Did he use "match quality" ammo or custom ammo in his P220? He has the barrel, what about the ammo? I shoot really, really tight groups with a P220-45 at 50 feet. I'm wondering if that " 20 rounds in a single hole" (more or less) target would be attainable with a match barrel and match ammo?

Combat accuracy is attainable at combat distances with target ammo, if the skills are there.
 
Posts: 2963 | Registered: February 07, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
fugitive from reality
Picture of SgtGold
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There was a fairly long thread a while back aboth the difference between accuracy and pecision. Accuracy is what you get out of a firearm, but precision is how well you can use that accuracy. I don't remember how long ago it was, but do a search any maybe you'll find it.

The general answer is yes, to get the most out of match grade ammo, you need a match grade barrel. I can tell you from personal experience that most guns shoot better with match grade ammo, but this isn't always the case. The FAL rifle is one of those designs that just doesn't benifit a whole lot from Federal Gold Medal Match ammo. The AR15 is on the other end of the spectrum. I've yet to see a personal AR, or a military issued M16\M4 that didn't shoot better with better ammo. The M14\M1A is the esame way, as is the M1 Garand.

Now on to pistols. Every 22lr pistol I've ever owned shoots better with match ammo. The secrect with 22lr is usually the chamber cut. Match grade barrels use a match chamber such as a Benz chamber, as opposed to a sport chamber that Ruger uses for their MK pistols. That's not to say that my 22\45 can shoot with a Walther GSP, but out of 100 shots the Walther will score higher from a mechanical accuracy standpoint.

1911's are an interesting study in accuracy. The barrel and bushing fit is critical to target accuracy, and my CMP ball gun shoots just about every 230 gr ammo equally well at 25 yards. Where the match grade work on a 1911 really shines is at 50 yards. Every gun is different, so you'll have to bench test what you have in order to determine if a change in ammo is all that's needed, or you need accuracy work as well.

40 S&W is an odd duck for match grade work because outside of the action pistol world no one really uses that caliber. I've never seen one at a bullseye match, and I've never heard anyone talk about what combination of components result in match grade 40 ammo.


_____________________________
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Posts: 6547 | Location: Newyorkistan | Registered: March 28, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
fugitive from reality
Picture of SgtGold
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by ensigmatic:
One of my best friends sent his P220 out to have a match barrel custom fitted and other tune-ups. Did some reloading. In the end he felt none of that resulted in a significant improvement. And he's the best shot I've ever known.


I have a P220 Match Stainless Elite. After much internet research, including e-mailing numerous Sig pistol smiths, I came to the same conclusion.


_____________________________
'I'm pretty fly for a white guy'.

 
Posts: 6547 | Location: Newyorkistan | Registered: March 28, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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A few posters here and the ballistician Bryan Litz define “precision” as the ability of the firearm and ammunition to produce small groups without regard to where the group is located with respect to the point of aim. They now define “accuracy” as where the center of the group is with respect to the intended target.

E.g., assuming we were aiming at the center of a conventional bull’s-eye target with circular scoring rings, a rifle that produced a 1-inch group at 10 o’clock in the 7 ring at 200 yards would be precise, but not very accurate because it’s not hitting where it’s aimed. On the other hand, a rifle that produced a 6-inch group that was centered over the X ring would be accurate, but not very precise.

The above distinction between precision and accuracy is something I encountered only recently, but I believe it has value as long as everyone agrees what the terms mean.




“A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.”
— Simon & Garfunkel, The Boxer, 1970
 
Posts: 41454 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Nullus Anxietas
Picture of ensigmatic
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by odin:
quote:
One of my best friends sent his P220 out to have a match barrel custom fitted and other tune-ups

Did he use "match quality" ammo or custom ammo in his P220? He has the barrel, what about the ammo?

He reloaded his own. And, trust me: He didn't miss a bet in experimenting and testing. This guy literally embodies the meanings of words such as "precise" and "exacting."




"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
The dominant media is no more "mainstream" than leftists are liberals.
 
Posts: 17622 | Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
and this little pig said:
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If he's a "reloader", his ammo is more precise than match ammo!!!! Smile
 
Posts: 2963 | Registered: February 07, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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