I went to Walmart today and bought some 38 special to shoot in a friend's gun. I notice that the 38 spl case is so much longer than a 9mm, yet even defense +P load in 125 or 130 gr can only produce less than 300 ft/lb of energy( more like 260 ft/lb). It's very slow bullet while the 9mm, being much smaller can pack considerably more "heat". Is it possible to load the 38spl "hotter" or it's just an outdated design? Thanks.

The .38 Special was originally loaded with black powder and is still loaded to black powder pressures even with smokeless.

It is possible to load the .38 to higher pressures (+P is only about 10% higher) and modern guns would stand it or could be made to. But the companies live in fear of lawsuit if somebody blew up an old gun with .38 Extra Special ammunition.

.38 Specal +P+ is heavily loaded to very heavily loaded, there is no actual specification for it; whatever the manufacturer thinks the guns will stand. But it was orginially intended for use in .357 Magnum revolvers by police agencies intimidated by liberal news media reports of excessively powerful police weapons.

The .38-44 Heavy Duty version was pretty much the pinnacle of .38 Special power but it is at or above +P+ pressures and no liability conscious maker of the 21st century would sell it to the public.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Watson:
The .38 Special was originally loaded with black powder and is still loaded to black powder pressures even with smokeless.

It is possible to load the .38 to higher pressures (+P is only about 10% higher) and modern guns would stand it or could be made to. But the companies live in fear of lawsuit if somebody blew up an old gun with .38 Extra Special ammunition.

.38 Specal +P+ is heavily loaded to very heavily loaded, there is no actual specification for it; whatever the manufacturer thinks the guns will stand. But it was orginially intended for use in .357 Magnum revolvers by police agencies intimidated by liberal news media reports of excessively powerful police weapons.

The .38-44 Heavy Duty version was pretty much the pinnacle of .38 Special power but it is at or above +P+ pressures and no liability conscious maker of the 21st century would sell it to the public.

that explains a lot. THanks.

.38 special still packs more real world knock down power than 9mm doesn't it?

quote:

Originally posted by wingnutsdad:
.38 special still packs more real world knock down power than 9mm doesn't it?

?????? Why would you say this?

quote:

Originally posted by wingnutsdad:
.38 special still packs more real world knock down power than 9mm doesn't it?

Knockdown power in a handgun is myth.

Which does more, a 124gr+P Speer GDHP in 9mm that tears up a lung, or a 148gr TWC in .38spec that destroys the CNS? Obviously the .38spec.

see the question mark at the end of my sentence? I was asking really.

Good grief there must be nearly twice as much powder in a 38 special cartridge with approximately the same size bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by wingnutsdad:
see the question mark at the end of my sentence? I was asking really.

Good grief there must be nearly twice as much powder in a 38 special cartridge with approximately the same size bullet.

It is possible to load the 38sp to 357mag pressure levels & far surpass the 9mm in performance. In factory ammo though, the 9mm has a small edge. BuffaloBore makes a 158grLSWCHP+P that makes 1000fps in a 4". Pretty potent, not much in 9mm can do that.

quote:

Originally posted by wingnutsdad:
see the question mark at the end of my sentence? I was asking really.

Good grief there must be nearly twice as much powder in a 38 special cartridge with approximately the same size bullet.

SAAMI pressure for 38Spl is 17,000 psi vs 35,000 for 9mm. If you adhere to these specs, you cannot drive the same bullet out of the 38spl faster than out of the 9mm given equal barrel lengths. The amount of powder isn't by itself a determing factor in how fast the bullet will be driven. There could indeed be more powder in the 38spl case but it could be a different powder with a different burn rate than what's in the 9mm. Even if it were the same powder, the case volume of the 38spl is so much greater than the 9mm, that the same amount of the powder in the 38spl would generate less pressure than in the 9mm.

^
Does anyone know what the design specifications are for a modern .38Spl revolver? I would think you could easily design one that could sustain 35,000 PSI (there are 9mm revolvers that are very close to .38s is design.)

How would a .38spl loaded up to that pressure in a 4" revolver perform?

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
^
Does anyone know what the design specifications are for a modern .38Spl revolver? I would think you could easily design one that could sustain 35,000 PSI (there are 9mm revolvers that are very close to .38s is design.)

How would a .38spl loaded up to that pressure in a 4" revolver perform?

Why, yes! There is a design spec for a 35,000psi .38spl. It's called .357Mag (which happens to have a SAAMI 35,000psi spec).

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
^
Does anyone know what the design specifications are for a modern .38Spl revolver? I would think you could easily design one that could sustain 35,000 PSI (there are 9mm revolvers that are very close to .38s is design.)

How would a .38spl loaded up to that pressure in a 4" revolver perform?

S&W introduced the .357 Magnum about 1935. The Combat Magnum, introduced about 1955, was basically a K-frame .38 engineered to handle the .357 mag in reasonable quantities. I am not saying your idea has no merit, but you may be trying to re-invent the wheel.

FWIW, custom 'smiths have been known to install magnum cylinders in .38 K-frames, too, to allow limited shooting of magnum ammo in a skinny-barreled weapon. I am not aware of any 'smiths still doing this these days.

Ruger did sell SP101s chambered in .38 Special, if anyone wants a fairly light weapon able to fire over-pressure stuff loaded into .38 Special cases, but keep in mind that there is enough room in a .38 case to exceed magnum pressure specs. At least one 'smith was reaming .38 SP101s to chamber .357 ammo, before Ruger started chambering them that way themselves.

You are correct. It's an answer to a problem rended moot a long time ago (with the introduction of .357 Magnum).

I guess the same goes for .45 long Colt and .44 Magnum.

quote:

Originally posted by Rexster:

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
^
Does anyone know what the design specifications are for a modern .38Spl revolver? I would think you could easily design one that could sustain 35,000 PSI (there are 9mm revolvers that are very close to .38s is design.)

How would a .38spl loaded up to that pressure in a 4" revolver perform?

S&W introduced the .357 Magnum about 1935. The Combat Magnum, introduced about 1955, was basically a K-frame .38 engineered to handle the .357 mag in reasonable quantities. I am not saying your idea has no merit, but you may be trying to re-invent the wheel.

FWIW, custom 'smiths have been known to install magnum cylinders in .38 K-frames, too, to allow limited shooting of magnum ammo in a skinny-barreled weapon. I am not aware of any 'smiths still doing this these days.

Ruger did sell SP101s chambered in .38 Special, if anyone wants a fairly light weapon able to fire over-pressure stuff loaded into .38 Special cases, but keep in mind that there is enough room in a .38 case to exceed magnum pressure specs. At least one 'smith was reaming .38 SP101s to chamber .357 ammo, before Ruger started chambering them that way themselves.

quote:

Originally posted by wingnutsdad:
.38 special still packs more real world knock down power than 9mm doesn't it?

Nope!

A little bit of background on the 357 Magnum. During the late 20's and early 30's there were "wildcatters" who were loading the 38 spl. very hot and using in in the 38 caliber Heavy Frame S&W revolver. This particular revolver was built on the 44 caliber frame and chambered for the 38 spl. Because of this, the wildcatters called their hot 38 the 38/44. At some point it was even possible to purchase 38/44 ammunition in some gun shops. Because of safety, and possibly some liability, concerns, S&W decided to work with Remington to develop a longer case cartridge using a .357 diameter bullet and a case identical to the 38 spl. case except that it was longer. In 1935, the Registered Magnum was announced and it's no accident that the gun was built on the same 44 caliber frame that the 38/44 wildcatters had been using. Today, the direct descendent of the Registered Magnum is the S&W model 27 and it's still built on the 44 caliber N frame.

Now, what does all this mean today. It's pretty simple. You can load a 38 spl. to Magnum pressures and shoot it safely in any revolver that has been rated for the 357 Magnum. All you would be doing is duplicating the old 38/44 loading. The only reason why the 357 Magnum uses a longer case is so that it won't chamber in a 38 spl. revolver because in some guns that would present a real safety hazard. However, you won't find any commercial reloader offering the old 38/44 amunition for sale, doing this today would be a huge liability issue.

Personally, I think that anyone desiring a hot 38 caliber ammunition for home defense should just purchase a box of 357 Magnum. If you don't have a 357 Magnum revolver, then stick with the commercial 38 caliber loads. While a S&W model 67 may be nearly identical to the 357 Magnum model 66, it's quite possible that the cylinder in the 357 Magnum revolver has been heat treated to a higher strength than the cylinder in the model 67. Bottomline, if you exceed the 38 +P standard in a 38 spl. revolver, you just may have the gun blow up in your hands.

One other note, I commonly warm up with 38 spl. and then shift to 357 Magnums. The difference in noise level is quite distinct with the 357 Magnums being much louder. Ih a Home Defense scenerio, that difference in noise level may be the difference between temporary and permanant damage to your hearing and the hearing of any family member present. Yeah, it's better to be deaf than dead, however a well placed 38 spl. has proven effective for over 100 years. In addition, in a lightweight revolver the 38 spl. provides a much higher degree of repeat shot accuracy than the much more powerful 357 Magnum. Bottomline, while it is a bit weak, the 38 spl. has certainly proven adequate and is worthy of consideration for Home Defense.

Per Winchester 38Spl +P+ is 15% higher than +P or 23,500 CUP and were used for years in issue S&W model 15's with no problems.

It's always fascinated me that these two cartridges were introduced within a couple of years of one another, but they have such different specs.

The 38spc was introduced in 1899, and the 9mm in 1902. The 38 was only a black powder cartridge for one year, but that explains the low SAAMI specs.

Most people instinctively think of the 9mm as the "modern" round, when in reality they are nearly identical in age.

Most fascinating to me is how popular the 38 remains, given it's relatively low performance for it's size.

What Jim Watson said.

quote:

Originally posted by wingnutsdad:
.38 special still packs more real world knock down power than 9mm doesn't it?

I think this "myth" has come about for two reasons:

1) the .38 typically drives a heavier bullet so it has more momentum and going back to the old energy versus momentum debates and the various theories that correlated momentum to "stopping power" which placed the .38 Special as superior to the 9mm.

2) the .38 typically fires a flat nose bullet which will create more tissue damage than the standard 9mm ball round does. The 9mm ball round has a demonstrated tendency to be very streamlined when going into tissue creating smaller permanent wound channels and penetrating quite deeply.

That said, in terms of pure ballistics the 9mm (especially at +P or NATO pressures) is easily superior to the 38 Special and with a good Hollow point design would certainly be my first pick.