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Picture of ubelongoutside
posted
I've ordered my first NFA items and I'm going back and forth on whether to enter them into a trust or just put them in my name and make sure I have a proper legal will.

Since the changes in July what are the real advantages of a trust?

I've been warned that the CLEO in my area isn't gun friendly, and that is why guys did trusts previously, but since July that is a moot point right as he gets notification, but can't not sign off on my purchase correct?

I'm married with a young son who will eventually be willed the items, and its my understanding that if its in the will then he won't have to pay the ATF transfer fee, just have to go through the checks on a form 5 (I could be wrong about the form). So other than thinking ahead to when he might want to use them without me present is there any other advantage to having a trust with him and my wife in it?

Is there any reason I'm missing on why it's advantageous to have the trust?

Thanks in advance,

Don




Si Quaeris Peninsulam Amoenam Circumspice
 
Posts: 822 | Location: Ypsilanti, MI | Registered: August 03, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Be not wise in
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Picture of kimber1911
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My belief is that married couples should always both have Concealed Permits if you have pistols, and gun trust for any NFA firearms you may have.
Just to avoid potential legal issues with illegal possession of a firearm.

Probably very unlikely, but imagine you leave your pistol or suppressor in the glove box and she grabs the car for a quick run to the grocery store. Gets pulled over or in an accident, reaches in the glovebox for the car registration and now she is left to explain to the nice officer why she is in illegal possession.

Basically I see no down side other than the initial $100 or so to obtain a well written gun trust.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: kimber1911,



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Posts: 1964 | Location: NC | Registered: December 05, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The obvious is what you stated as far as your kid(s) down the road can be put on the Trust and possess the items. Also if your Trust is set up correctly you can have a generational Trust where they just take over the Trust and not have to do the Form 5.
 
Posts: 815 | Location: The Edge of Nowhere... | Registered: April 05, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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In addition to what Kimber 1911 said, you can swap items with friends who own NFA items provided they are on your trust.The drawback is that you have to have the time now to get everyone on your trust to get mugshots and prints.
 
Posts: 4 | Registered: February 09, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I run trains!
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Thing is, as your son is young now he can't really be in possession of any of your toys. Why not create a trust with just you and your wife right now? When he's of age just add him, no muss no fuss. Also means that only you and your wife would have to be fingerprinted and take mug shots.



Success always occurs in private, and failure in full view.
 
Posts: 3538 | Location: Springfield, MO...for now (Texan by birth) | Registered: April 14, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of nhracecraft
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Your son should absolutely be listed on the Trust....as the Beneficiary! Definitely go the Trust route... Wink


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Posts: 2665 | Location: New Hampshire | Registered: October 29, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of arlen
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With a trust, there is no feeling of ownership. This will lead to an easier government task of confiscating weapons. No one will be a proud owner of an item. So every one will just sit back and let the government take the item away from the trust instead of resisting it being taken away from the individual.
This is a sad arrangement.


Regards,
arlen
 
Posts: 159 | Location: Colorado | Registered: August 13, 2016Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I run trains!
Picture of SigM4
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quote:
Originally posted by arlen:
With a trust, there is no feeling of ownership. This will lead to an easier government task of confiscating weapons. No one will be a proud owner of an item. So every one will just sit back and let the government take the item away from the trust instead of resisting it being taken away from the individual.
This is a sad arrangement.


What? Confused



Success always occurs in private, and failure in full view.
 
Posts: 3538 | Location: Springfield, MO...for now (Texan by birth) | Registered: April 14, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of arlen
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Just what I said. There are too many people involved in a trust and no one will take individual responsibility to defend the ownership of communal property. So the task of taking away the communal property is easier than taking away individually owned property. It is a psychological thing.
It makes confiscation easier.


Regards,
arlen
 
Posts: 159 | Location: Colorado | Registered: August 13, 2016Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of nhracecraft
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quote:
Originally posted by arlen:
Just what I said. There are too many people involved in a trust and no one will take individual responsibility to defend the ownership of communal property. So the task of taking away the communal property is easier than taking away individually owned property. It is a psychological thing.
It makes confiscation easier.


Nonsense....Since when is it easier to take anything from a group of people than to do so from an individual. And nobody is talking about that anyway! IANAL however, as the Grantor Trustee of your NFA Trust, you determine any additional Trustees, and you would need to determine if they have the appropriate 'psychological' qualifications. Regardless, the entire premise of both of your posts have nothing to do with the inquiry of the OP!

A Trust is a VERY Common vehicle of ownership of all types of property....Not just NFA items! That said, a Trust has numerous advantages in the case of NFA items. Besides eliminating the potential of illegal possession of said NFA items (by those in ones family that have access), it streamlines the conveyance of property to the beneficiary by avoiding probate, which can present unique challenges with NFA items depending on the laws of the state in question.


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Posts: 2665 | Location: New Hampshire | Registered: October 29, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of arlen
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Just my opinion. But if I share joint ownership with others of an item, my sense of ownership is diminished quite a bit. A few steps/generations down the chain of inheritance will diminish the sense of ownership to nearly nil.

I felt that the OP was asking about the benefits/disadvantages in general of gun trusts.


Regards,
arlen
 
Posts: 159 | Location: Colorado | Registered: August 13, 2016Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of ubelongoutside
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Thanks all for the input.

My main goal wouldn't be to "share" ownership of the items, as they will still be mine.

The main goal would be to ease the transfer of them upon my demise.

So really just looking into them as a comparison to a will.




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Posts: 822 | Location: Ypsilanti, MI | Registered: August 03, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of ruger357
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Get a trust. Buy everything you want then add your wife, son, brother, dad... They will only have your fingerprints, they can all possess the items and they won't have to pay for another tax stamp, wait for approval (who knows how much it will cost by then and how long the wait will be) when you die.


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Posts: 5960 | Location: Hoover, AL | Registered: November 06, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Loves His Wife
Picture of BRL
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by SigM4:
quote:
Originally posted by arlen:
With a trust, there is no feeling of ownership. This will lead to an easier government task of confiscating weapons. No one will be a proud owner of an item. So every one will just sit back and let the government take the item away from the trust instead of resisting it being taken away from the individual.
This is a sad arrangement.


What? Confused


I think we need to cut arlen some slack due to his condition Cool -

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums...250068514#8250068514

quote:
Originally posted by arlen:
Being able to tolerate cold is a conditioning problem. In the late 70s I went trout fishing in the Colorado Rockies with my father. We hiked up the mountain river 7 miles to a fork in the river which was at timberline to fish. After about 3 days I stunk so badly that I could not stand the smell of myself, so I had to find a pool in the river with a substantial waterfall in which to bathe. The river is fed by thousands of springs and the water temperature is below 40°. By the time I was washed and rinsed under the waterfall, I was nearly unconscious. I stood in the sunshine for quite a while to let the sun warm me back up and restore my blood circulation.

So, after that trip, I decided that I needed to condition myself in preparation for the high altitude fishing trips. I have taken cold showers, daily, ever since that fishing trip. After I moved to Colorado 30 years ago (my house sits at 9,250' in the Rocky Mountains) I have continued the daily cold showers. I am now 67 years of age. My water well produces fresh water of 38°. It is exhilarating. I wear short sleeve shirts all year around, no coats or gloves, no matter the temperature. 0° and sunny, with no wind, is absolutely wonderful weather.

I think that I may have suffered brain damage, though.



I am not BIPOLAR. I don't even like bears.

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Posts: 11962 | Location: Western WI | Registered: January 05, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of arlen
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I see the humor there.


Regards,
arlen
 
Posts: 159 | Location: Colorado | Registered: August 13, 2016Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of ubelongoutside
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quote:
Originally posted by ruger357:
Get a trust. Buy everything you want then add your wife, son, brother, dad... They will only have your fingerprints, they can all possess the items and they won't have to pay for another tax stamp, wait for approval (who knows how much it will cost by then and how long the wait will be) when you die.


I thought the changes that went into effect in July now require everyone in the trust to be fingerprinted etc.?




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Posts: 822 | Location: Ypsilanti, MI | Registered: August 03, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I run trains!
Picture of SigM4
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by ubelongoutside:
quote:
Originally posted by ruger357:
Get a trust. Buy everything you want then add your wife, son, brother, dad... They will only have your fingerprints, they can all possess the items and they won't have to pay for another tax stamp, wait for approval (who knows how much it will cost by then and how long the wait will be) when you die.


I thought the changes that went into effect in July now require everyone in the trust to be fingerprinted etc.?


Yep, at the time you submit for the Form 4 transfers. Nothing keeping you from adding/subtracting folks after the fact.



Success always occurs in private, and failure in full view.
 
Posts: 3538 | Location: Springfield, MO...for now (Texan by birth) | Registered: April 14, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of argolfer
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I agree that a trust has more benefits than downsides.

quote:
Originally posted by kimber1911:
Probably very unlikely, but imagine you leave your pistol or suppressor in the glove box and she grabs the car for a quick run to the grocery store. Gets pulled over or in an accident, reaches in the glovebox for the car registration and now she is left to explain to the nice officer why she is in illegal possession.


Why would she be in illegal possession of a pistol without a permit??


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Posts: 4292 | Location: Texas | Registered: July 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Be not wise in
thine own eyes
Picture of kimber1911
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quote:
Originally posted by argolfer:
I agree that a trust has more benefits than downsides.

quote:
Originally posted by kimber1911:
Probably very unlikely, but imagine you leave your pistol or suppressor in the glove box and she grabs the car for a quick run to the grocery store. Gets pulled over or in an accident, reaches in the glovebox for the car registration and now she is left to explain to the nice officer why she is in illegal possession.


Why would she be in illegal possession of a pistol without a permit??

In the glove box is considered concealed.

Without a concealed permit it is required to be unloaded and in a case not readily accessible.
This varies with individual State laws.

But then again maybe my logic fails considering NC is a must inform state.
However, my logic is good for WA.

Hmmm... Looking over my full comments, I am failing here.
My logic was based on Washington State law.
New to North Carolina, cut me some slack
Point still stands, since it is only my opinion. Smile

Married couples should each have a concealed permit, and be listed on NFA gun trust.



"Elections have consequences" Obama (D) 2009

"We are going to drain the swamp.”
Donald Trump (R) 2016

"ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ!" King Leonidas of Sparta
 
Posts: 1964 | Location: NC | Registered: December 05, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Hoping for better pharmaceuticals
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quote:
Originally posted by arlen:
Just what I said. There are too many people involved in a trust and no one will take individual responsibility to defend the ownership of communal property. So the task of taking away the communal property is easier than taking away individually owned property. It is a psychological thing.
It makes confiscation easier.

Perhaps you might look at it as 2 or more people committed to the safeguard of certain property that won't be lost to the government. If one is bound to give up then perhaps they shouldn't be listed on the trust.




Getting shot is no achievement. Hitting your enemy is.
 
Posts: 7618 | Location: Phoenix, Arizona | Registered: April 02, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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