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I need a little advice about my MP5K PDW sear gun from you who are knowledgeable with these HKs. It is an awesome piece of German machinery to say the least but I'm thinking about selling the sear, keeping the gun and re-registering it as an SBR. Mine started life as a NIB SP89. The sear is a Fleming (three calibers listed on the Form 4---9mm, 223, 308) and the work on the gun was done by S&H. As mentioned, the gun is on a Form 4 and all calibers are listed. So far I've only put only about 200-300 rounds through it without a hitch so it's essentially new.

So, what is the best way of going about selling the sear? Any input would be appreciated. I have a few other questions but will just stick to this topic in this thread. Please do not discuss pricing as Para has requested that we not do that here. If you would however like to email me, please see my profile where the address is listed. Thank you.
 
Posts: 1427 | Registered: March 07, 2005Report This Post
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I can't help with the specifics but I know HKs can vary greatly how they are made / registered.

The sear could be registered or the receiver.

The best is if the sear is registered and you can divorce the Gun and the sear, but honestly I'd say go to HK Pro as they have all manner of experts when it comes to the multiple ways HKs were made as machineguns.




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Posts: 34871 | Location: Around | Registered: July 12, 2008Report This Post
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Go on Subguns and uzitalk.

There's no easy answer, but I wouldn't sell it if I were you, even though it's probably well north of 20K in value...
 
Posts: 3970 | Location: Colorado Springs | Registered: April 12, 2006Report This Post
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Well, like I said the sear is registered and to my understanding it is not married to the gun. Also, being listed on Form 4 specifically naming the 3 calibers makes it more interesting. Problem with asking for info on forums like HK Pro is that if you don't have a lot of posts and want to discuss info regarding something you own, the post usually get locked because it appears that you are "offering" it for sale (even though you are not officially). And on some websites you need a lot of posts before being permitted to sell an item. In a nut shell it's been my experience that it's tricky getting straight info on NFA toys.
 
Posts: 1427 | Registered: March 07, 2005Report This Post
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I would start by calling the BTAFE and ask ... or write a letter to the tech branch.

If the sear isn't married to the gun, you could just list it on Gunbroker and let market decide the price.

Is the SP89 also SBR'd, or do you have to return it to a pistol configuration when you remove the sear and/or do you have a semi-auto pack and the end cap to return it to a pistol?

A sear will should bring a sizeable chunk of change, a couple things to think about are; since the sear is already in a trigger pack you might offer to sell the trigger pack with the sear installed ... it's a bit of a hassle to get the sear in a semi-pack which can be intimidating to some buyers and another expense if they don't feel that they could do it ... although some may want pictures of it not installed to make sure there are no cracks or unusual wear on the sear

I've thought of offering mine up for sale, in the event President Elect Trump is able to eliminate NFA but I think the best we can hope for it getting suppressors and maybe SBR/SBS dropped from the registry ... in the end I've decided to take a chance and keep my sear and M16 ... the possibility is too slim and they are only getting more expensive.

Edit to add ...
I would think in its current configuration it would bring the premium ... why not just sell the package and buy a quality clone for $2,000 or whatever they're bringing these days?


If you really want something you'll find a way ...
... if you don't you'll find an excuse.

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Posts: 4072 | Registered: January 11, 2007Report This Post
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Please read my OP and 2nd post again. The questions you asked are there to read. One thing I did forget to mention however is that the sear's SN is listed as well on the Form 4. The trigger pack is set up "SEF" right now--safe, semi auto, full auto.
The issue with the trigger pack is one that I do not completely understand. If I sell the sear in the trigger pack, that would mean that a new trigger pack and sear would be required. Since the gun would then be semi auto only, is it easy to buy a trigger pack with a semi auto sear installed, and simply put this unit into my gun and expect it to function properly? My guess is yes but I simply don't know.
To be honest I have considered selling the entire gun/sear package just as I purchased it. That's a good point you make Kimberkid. But I know that this SP89 is from an era in HK history which I fondly remember and there are no MIM parts in it. It's totally old school and that's the reason I'd like to keep it. An HK clone does absolutely nothing for me.
 
Posts: 1427 | Registered: March 07, 2005Report This Post
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Yes, you can sell the trigger pack as is. It is meaningless to have it registered in "3 calibers" since it is not a gun. I have several and it doesn't matter what you put it in, the ATF doesn't recognize the three caliber thing when it comes to sears and packs.

You don't need to register the gun as SBR unless you wish to continue using it with the stock and forward grip.
Your sear is not "married" to the host, so you can separate it and sell them apart if you want.
You will need to get a new semi pack. You cannot use this pack without the sear (better to sell it with the pack). Replacement pack




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Posts: 1539 | Location: Back in the good 'ol U.S.A. (South Fla) | Registered: April 08, 2006Report This Post
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I asked a buddy who has an extensive NFA collection with a dozen HK select fire guns. He said

"from what it sounds like if his paperwork is for a registered auto sear with no mention of the sp89 he can pull the sear and return the sp89 into a pistol. When i bought my sear it was install in my hk51, being that it started life as a rifle I couldn't remove the sear til after I sbr the hk51. But since the sp89 started life as a pistol he can return it as a pistol when he removes the sear."

I'd probably check with the atf as well though.


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Posts: 3238 | Location: SE PA | Registered: November 13, 2010Report This Post
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It looks like you have your answers and although I'm not an NFA expert, everything sounds correct for your situation but if you have any doubts I'd urge you to call the ATF. Personally, since 2007 (when Kansas repealed the state laws prohibiting possession of NFA toys) I've never had a problem asking the ATF anything and they have always been helpful ... It's my understanding that this hasn't always been the case.

Sorry, I didn't intend to offend, but because you said you weren't clear on your NFA toy I wanted to be sure I wasn't giving you wrong info on the status of the SP89 when you remove the registered sear, and being in possession of the stock and the firearm without SBR-ing it could be considered constructive intent of an illegal SBR.

I understand wanting to keep the SP89 too, I've had several and a couple of them, I paid the same or less than what the good clones are bringing now ... clones have come a long way since Todd Bailey/Special Weapons started making them back in 97(?) I've never been fond of the SP89 as a pistol (or any of the pistol PDW's) which is why all of mine have been SBR'd but if you want a shooter instead of safe queen, a clone is the way to go ... For my own personal use, I use clones for my sear rather than burn up a genuine HK.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: kimberkid,


If you really want something you'll find a way ...
... if you don't you'll find an excuse.

I'm really not a "kid" anymore ... but I haven't grown up yet either Wink
 
Posts: 4072 | Registered: January 11, 2007Report This Post
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Good help guys, thanks! Your posts clarify a lot.
No offense taken at all kimberkid. I figured since I wrote everything in earlier posts, it would make make more sense to simply say "re-read" rather than write everything all over again.
If my idea to separate the sear/trigger pack from the gun proceeds as expected, I will keep the
SP89, remove the vertical PG/side folding stock and let a buddy of mine keep those items for the time being. Then I can file a Form 1 to SBR the SP89. Once approved, these can be re-attached.
Have one more thing to add/ask but I need to examine the Form 4 and it's in the safe. Will do so tomorrow. Stay tuned.
 
Posts: 1427 | Registered: March 07, 2005Report This Post
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OK back the Form 4. Studying it right now and below are a couple of observations:
Item 4b Type of firearm "Machine Gun Sear"
Item 4c Caliber, Gauge Or Size "223, 308, 9mm"
Item 4g Serial Number "SN of sear appears here"
Item 4h Additional Description Or Data Appearing on Firearm "Installed by S&H Arms Inc of OK in H&K MP5K SNXXX-XXXXX"
Since the form lists the sear SN, why does it also list the SN of the HK MP5K?
Why does it list all three calibers? Someone in an earlier post mentioned it wasn't necessary or something along those lines.
 
Posts: 1427 | Registered: March 07, 2005Report This Post
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Some knowledge here.

http://machinegunpriceguide.com/html/hk_nfa_conv.HTM




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Posts: 34871 | Location: Around | Registered: July 12, 2008Report This Post
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After reading that, I'd say ... It sounds like you can use the sear/trigger pack in other hosts because of the different caliber's listed ... but it also sounds like you can't sell the sear separately and replace the Trigger pack with a semi-auto only group.

That's just my interpretation ... and I'm no lawyer.

Write the ATF, so no matter what they say, you have your answer in writing.


If you really want something you'll find a way ...
... if you don't you'll find an excuse.

I'm really not a "kid" anymore ... but I haven't grown up yet either Wink
 
Posts: 4072 | Registered: January 11, 2007Report This Post
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A sear installed in a SP-89 will not be married to the host. SP-89 was imported beginning in 89/90 and is a pistol. A "married" sear refers to two scenarios. The "divorceable" sear - one that is installed in a host with a sub-16" barrel that has not been registered as a SBR. Sear and host may be separated (divorced) by either registering the host as a SBR or by returning the host to title-1 configuration (perm attach barrel extension, swap for 16" barrel). The second type is the forever married sear - the rare sears that were installed in hosts that had the front pushpin drilled. These cannot be removed from the host.

You can remove your sear from the SP89 host without issue.

Given that the sear is owned personally and will transfer out via a form-4, unless you find an in-state buyer the transfer to an out of state individual is going to take a VERY long time. Savvy buyers know this and will lessen the value of your sear due to the wait.

Your best bet to maximize your sale price is to find a local buyer. You can also contact the bigger dealers and see what they will give you. It will be less than what you could get if you sell it yourself, but it will be totally hassle free, you'll get paid immediately and you won't have a newbie buyer nagging you every month about the status of the transfer.

Fleming sear converted MP5K is pushing $38-42k on the boards. Sear installed in a pack alone is pushing $30-34k. The higher end are the big dealer prices with the item in inventory.

If you part the host and sear, you want to keep the sear installed in the pack. Installation of a sear into a semiauto pack requires that the semiauto trigger stop be milled off to allow the trigger into the fullauto position. Use of such a pack without a sear is verboten by ATF, as it could allow hammer follow/slam fire. Another issue if you part sear and host, you will need to not be in possession of the stock if the sear is gone and the SP89 is not a sbr.

I would personally sell the complete K/sear combo, buy a HK SP5K and sbr it. Well I would recommend against selling it at all. The HK sear is the single most desirable MG. I suspect there is essentially no limit to how high these will go. One sear, 10 or more hosts from SMG, to assault rifle, to battle rifle, to Beltfed, with nearly every popular caliber as an option and barrel lengths from very short, short, intermediate, to long. Next year a sear in a pack will fetch north of $45k.



quote:
Originally posted by kimberkid:
I would start by calling the BTAFE and ask ... or write a letter to the tech branch.

<SNIP>

Edit to add ...
I would think in its current configuration it would bring the premium ... why not just sell the package and buy a quality clone for $2,000 or whatever they're bringing these days?



I would not write a letter to tech branch. Absolutely nothing positive will come of it. An SP89 will not be married to a sear.


quote:
Originally posted by kaschi:
OK back the Form 4. Studying it right now and below are a couple of observations:
Item 4b Type of firearm "Machine Gun Sear"
Item 4c Caliber, Gauge Or Size "223, 308, 9mm"
Item 4g Serial Number "SN of sear appears here"
Item 4h Additional Description Or Data Appearing on Firearm "Installed by S&H Arms Inc of OK in H&K MP5K SNXXX-XXXXX"
Since the form lists the sear SN, why does it also list the SN of the HK MP5K?
Why does it list all three calibers? Someone in an earlier post mentioned it wasn't necessary or something along those lines.


It was very common for Curtis Higgins to list the SN of the host in which the sear is installed. This does not mean that the sear and host are married. For accurate record keeping and to avoid a hiccup in future transfers, it would be helpful to notify ATF in writing at the time of transfer that the sear is no longer installed in host SN xxxxx. Not necessary, just a nice thing to do. My last sear that I purchased had such a hiccup because at some point it was installed in a cut down HK94 and was divorceably "married" to the sear. The seller from whom I bought the sear purchased it installed in a pack (i.e. no host). ATF asked where the host was, because this was no longer listed on the form. Seller simply sent them a signed letter stating that he was never the owner of the host. This is a non-issue for a pistol SP-89.


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"AND YEA THOUGH THE HINDUS SPEAK OF KARMA, I IMPLORE YOU...GIVE HER A BREAK, LORD". - Clark W. Griswald
 
Posts: 1804 | Location: The South | Registered: September 12, 2005Report This Post
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Thanks for the correction and clarification Josh


If you really want something you'll find a way ...
... if you don't you'll find an excuse.

I'm really not a "kid" anymore ... but I haven't grown up yet either Wink
 
Posts: 4072 | Registered: January 11, 2007Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by kimberkid:
Thanks for the correction and clarification Josh


My pleasure.


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"AND YEA THOUGH THE HINDUS SPEAK OF KARMA, I IMPLORE YOU...GIVE HER A BREAK, LORD". - Clark W. Griswald
 
Posts: 1804 | Location: The South | Registered: September 12, 2005Report This Post
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Yes, definitely, and thank you Josh for the in-depth info! It is very much appreciated.
 
Posts: 1427 | Registered: March 07, 2005Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by kaschi:
Yes, definitely, and thank you Josh for the in-depth info! It is very much appreciated.


Happy to help. I sent you an email at the address listed in your public profile.


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"AND YEA THOUGH THE HINDUS SPEAK OF KARMA, I IMPLORE YOU...GIVE HER A BREAK, LORD". - Clark W. Griswald
 
Posts: 1804 | Location: The South | Registered: September 12, 2005Report This Post
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Got it Josh! Will mail you tomorrow.
 
Posts: 1427 | Registered: March 07, 2005Report This Post
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