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To Trust, or not to Trust, that is the question. Login/Join 
Member
Picture of Expert308
posted
60+ years old, no wife, no kids, not really anybody to leave any NFA toys to. My dad would probably be willing to take them on, maybe even enthusiastic about it, but barring a freak accident he won't outlive me. My brother would love to have them, but due to some unfortunate instances of poor judgement in his youth he is ineligible. Neither my sister, BIL nor either of their kids have ever expressed any interest in guns, let alone NFA stuff. I'm not planning on kicking the bucket anytime soon, just trying to plan ahead a little. So really, the only conceivable reason for using a trust - that I can think of - would be so that I could loan my toy/s to one of my shooting buddies.

So in the interest of keeping things simple, I'm leaning toward just going the individual route when I get ready to file a form 4 on a can. Or cans. Or is there a good reason for going with a trust that I haven't considered?
 
Posts: 5970 | Location: Portland, OR | Registered: February 12, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of CandyMan.45
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You've covered your bases on this... only thing is, and might be a big If that someone in your family may change their minds down the road.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: CandyMan.45,
 
Posts: 1185 | Location: The Edge of Nowhere... | Registered: April 05, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I run trains!
Picture of SigM4
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quote:
Originally posted by CandyMan.45:
You've covered your bases on this... only thing is, and might be a big If that someone in your family may change there minds down the road.


Yep. I don’t see any real down side to a trust, especially since it allows you to make changes down the road. Never know what the future holds.



Success always occurs in private, and failure in full view.
 
Posts: 4876 | Location: Willow Park, TX | Registered: April 14, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
certified biohazard
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with no heirs its a wash as you can have your executor or trustee after you die try and sell them (difficult) but a Trust allows other Trustee's contol over the NFA items as an "responsible person" but they also have certain control of your trust property by definition. Nobody else can use your NFA or be in control of it as an individual.


"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"
Edmund Burke
 
Posts: 512 | Location: Florida | Registered: February 18, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I went with a trust. I am younger (48) and two of my three kids like shooting and such so they will be sent to them or their kids. I currently am the only RP/Trustee on the trust. My wife and oldest daughter are successor trustees in case of my untimely death. So they have no control over my stuff and I don't have to send pic/prints in for them. Once I have gotten all I plan on and all three are of age I will put them on as trustees.
 
Posts: 147 | Registered: January 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Expert308
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quote:
Originally posted by p230:
I went with a trust. I am younger (48) and two of my three kids like shooting and such so they will be sent to them or their kids. I currently am the only RP/Trustee on the trust. My wife and oldest daughter are successor trustees in case of my untimely death. So they have no control over my stuff and I don't have to send pic/prints in for them. Once I have gotten all I plan on and all three are of age I will put them on as trustees.

OK, now that last point touches on something that I've been wondering about. Everything I've seen and read about NFA trusts seems to say that I can set up a trust with myself as the only trustee, then register a can to the trust, and then later add other trustees WITHOUT having to have them go through the whole ATF photo/prints/background check process (until and unless I decide to make another NFA purchase). Now, that seems like a huge loophole to me, as the new trustees would have full legal access to my NFA items, but without any ATF approval. I understand that the eligibility rules (non-felon, age, etc.) would still apply, but they would realistically only come into question in the event of ATF or LE somehow getting involved. Or am I completely misunderstanding what I've read?
 
Posts: 5970 | Location: Portland, OR | Registered: February 12, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Expert308:
quote:
Originally posted by p230:
I went with a trust. I am younger (48) and two of my three kids like shooting and such so they will be sent to them or their kids. I currently am the only RP/Trustee on the trust. My wife and oldest daughter are successor trustees in case of my untimely death. So they have no control over my stuff and I don't have to send pic/prints in for them. Once I have gotten all I plan on and all three are of age I will put them on as trustees.

OK, now that last point touches on something that I've been wondering about. Everything I've seen and read about NFA trusts seems to say that I can set up a trust with myself as the only trustee, then register a can to the trust, and then later add other trustees WITHOUT having to have them go through the whole ATF photo/prints/background check process (until and unless I decide to make another NFA purchase). Now, that seems like a huge loophole to me, as the new trustees would have full legal access to my NFA items, but without any ATF approval. I understand that the eligibility rules (non-felon, age, etc.) would still apply, but they would realistically only come into question in the event of ATF or LE somehow getting involved. Or am I completely misunderstanding what I've read?


It is a loophole, and yes people are absolutely doing that. Some are going as far as unloading everyone else from their trust before submitting and then adding back in after approval. That wasn’t what was intended by the ATF, but that’s how the final rule was written. When the rule was originally proposed, it had verbiage that said you had to notify the ATF within 30 days after adding someone to a trust that held NFA items, but that was dropped in the final rule.
 
Posts: 2107 | Location: South FL | Registered: February 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Music's over turn
out the lights
Picture of David W
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I have a trust from Dean, he has an amendment to attach to your trust that removes all people when submitting for a new can. It’s much easier than having everyone doing prints and pics.


David W.

Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud. -Sophocles
 
Posts: 3301 | Location: Winston Salem, N.C. | Registered: May 30, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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It's not any more of a "loophole" than Glock being able to change corporate officers between FFL renewals without notifying BATFE.
 
Posts: 3531 | Location: Iowa | Registered: February 24, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Does your sister or BIL like money, if yes they can sell your stuff after you pass. What if you meet somebody before you die that likes shooting with you?
 
Posts: 14 | Location: Michigan | Registered: January 24, 2020Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I'm a fan of the SilencerShop "single shot" trusts. They grant each NFA item its own trust. This totally gets around the signature problem and makes NFA items much more liquid. As I understand it (take my opinion with a chunk of salt), you can sell the trust (with modifications to the trustees) not the NFA item. Thus, there is no waiting period and no tax as there is no real transfer of the NFA item.
 
Posts: 128 | Location: SE MI | Registered: October 21, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Jmacken37:
I'm a fan of the SilencerShop "single shot" trusts. They grant each NFA item its own trust. This totally gets around the signature problem and makes NFA items much more liquid. As I understand it (take my opinion with a chunk of salt), you can sell the trust (with modifications to the trustees) not the NFA item. Thus, there is no waiting period and no tax as there is no real transfer of the NFA item.


Wait, what? There is approved paperwork that says that the trust owns the NFA item. While you can add others to the trust, how can you sell the trust but not have the NFA item go with it?
 
Posts: 2107 | Location: South FL | Registered: February 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
While you can add others to the trust, how can you sell the trust but not have the NFA item go with it?


I'm not sure what you are asking. Sorry. With a "typical" gun trust, there are multiple items on the trust. If the trust is sold, you'd have to sell all your items. A single shot trust allows you to sell a trust that possesses a single item.
 
Posts: 128 | Location: SE MI | Registered: October 21, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
certified biohazard
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If you have a trust with nothing in it why would someone buy it?? What you are saying I believe is you sell your stake in the NFA item as Trustee by resigning and naming the new buyer as trustee? But then the stamp has your name and address on it and the new buyer just has a trust because his name isn't on the stamp. Really sounds like a bad idea but perhaps you could find someone to believe in it......


"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"
Edmund Burke
 
Posts: 512 | Location: Florida | Registered: February 18, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by mew:
If you have a trust with nothing in it why would someone buy it?? What you are saying I believe is you sell your stake in the NFA item as Trustee by resigning and naming the new buyer as trustee? But then the stamp has your name and address on it and the new buyer just has a trust because his name isn't on the stamp. Really sounds like a bad idea but perhaps you could find someone to believe in it......


I think perhaps you are misunderstanding the process. The stamp usually has the serial number written on it but no names. You might be referring to the Form 4 or 1, but those too, will have the name of the trust as the transferee if the NFA item was transferred to a trust.
 
Posts: 128 | Location: SE MI | Registered: October 21, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
certified biohazard
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Yes I should have clarified, not the actual stamp but the form itself. Basically you are selling the form/stamp and resigning the trust to the buyer. I'm just saying the idea doesn't sound logical as most trusts don't own 1 item and the grantor just walks away. Normally trusts don't end because of a new trustee if that is your intent. It sure is a curious idea though.


"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"
Edmund Burke
 
Posts: 512 | Location: Florida | Registered: February 18, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Dean of Law
Picture of heavyd
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If you do not get a trust only you can possess the NFA weapons.

Sometimes it is nice to let a good friend use your suppressor. Some elderly folks like to let the executor of their will go ahead and take possession of their guns. If you ever share a car with someone you might leave a suppressor in the truck by accident.

There are dozens of reasons to get a trust. I cannot think of a downside other than a trust costs around $100.


H. Dean Phillips
$99 Gun Trusts
https://nfalawyers.com
 
Posts: 6544 | Location: Georgia | Registered: December 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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