I posted this over on arfcom too, but wanted to get some opinions from our SBR/suppressor/22lr crowd.

Got my 5.5" 22lr ST-22 upper back in late may/early june, with the new proprierty chromed bolt assy. When I ordered it, I also ordered the fake can so that I could run the upper with the cheap Fedbulkpack and save my Gemtech OutbackII for the cleaner ammo.

I admit, I've had some of the classic FTE/stovepipe/spent-case-stuck-between-the-charging-handle-and-bolt that some have reported. I did all of the fixes seen on arfcom, including:
-Cut down the spring several times, and now I'm at 7.25" total length left on the spring.
-filed the lips on all of my gen2 BDM mags so that they were positioned behind the ejector.
-changed the charging handle.
-replaced the hammer with a smooth-faced hammer rather than the notched type.
-lightened the hammer spring.
-filed down the bolt catch.

Every weekend, I've slowly done all the 'fixes', and every weekend I got more and more disappointed. With the gun running Bulkpack (red box and blue/champion box), Fed automatch, Am Eagle 40gr solid nose and hollowpoint, CCI GT/Minimag/stinger/standard/subsonic, and even the dreaded Remington bulkpack....I was still getting no less than 5 failures to extract with every mag.

That's running the upper with the Fake can on the front.

What sucks is that I bought 35 boxes of the fed bulk stuff.

NOW HERE'S WHERE IT GETS INTERESTING....


Despondant, I was ready to leave the range and thinking about putting the upper on the EE. Instead, I put the Gemtech Outback II on it, and loaded up 10 rounds of Automatch. Shot each round, WITHOUT a single FTExtract.

"Hmm", I thought.

So I loaded 15 rounds of Automatch. No probs at all.

Then I loaded 20 rounds of Automatch. Again no failures.

Then I loaded a full 27 round mag. Not a damn single problem.

Confused, I repeated the same thing with the bulk pack Federal, running 5, then 10, then 15, then 20, then 27 rounds. Again, NOT A SINGLE FAILURE TO EXTRACT! No stuck cases, nada!

By then my suppressor was a bit hot, and I noticed that the action/bolt was quite dirty. I noticed that when I was shooting with the suppressor, and especially since I shoot lefty, a lot of blowback/powder/gunk/spray came out of the ejection port, and I didn't notice this at all without the suppressor.

I gave it a cleaning while the suppressor cooled. Then I installed the Spike's Fake Can again. I attempted to do the same drill above, but I didn't get past the first 4 rounds when the dreaded FTExtract started again.

When my Outback was sufficiently cooled down, I reinstalled it, and ran 300 rounds of mixed Automatch, redbox Fed bulk, and blue box fed bulk with the only failure being ONE failure to ignite, which I blamed on the ammo.

I Did notice that I had a couple of FTextract with CCI Subsonic while running the Outback.


Which leaves me with my only explanation:

"The ST22 with a short barrel needs more backpressure, which was caused by using the Gemtech, to get it to run reliably. OR, it may need an even lighter recoil spring to run reliably WITHOUT a sound suppressor."

So, hopefully, I can get a couple more springs, and cut them down beyond the 7.25" that I'm running currently, to see if I can get it to work reliably without dirtying up my Gemtech.

Thoughts? Similar experiences out there?

The culprit:

Not unusual, talking to Skeeter owners they say their guns run much better with the can attached because of the increased blow back.

Anyways what rails are those? I've been looking at a spikes 22 upper, and wanted to pick the right length so it just lets the end of the can stick out.

Yeah, my 'skeeter runs reliably with the can.

The rail is a YHM carbine length. They make a wee longer one that may cover the can even better.

Sucks to hear you are having problems with the Sprikes Tactical. I'm going to get a 22 upper soon, I'm looking at the Tactical Solutions as well as the Spikes uppers. Kepp us informed on your progress.

I've had the same issue with my P22. I tried everything to get it running correctly, the gun went back to S&W a couple times, still was un reliable with CCI Mini Mag, Remington Target, ot CCI Standard Velocity.

I was about to give up. Then I bought my Mosquito and Tac 65. The Skeeter has been great since day 1, eats CCI all day never a problem.

I decided to get the adaptor for the P22 just to try it out. Now the P22 is perfect. It eats anything. It even shooting the Remingtom Sub Sonics that the Skeeter didn't like.

Solution? Buy suppressors!

quote:

So, hopefully, I can get a couple more springs, and cut them down beyond the 7.25" that I'm running currently, to see if I can get it to work reliably without dirtying up my Gemtech

Maybe pick up a Tac 65 or YHM Mite so you can clean it. Kind of an expensive addition, but it you have to shoot it suppressed all the time a user serviceable suppressor might be worth it.

Actually, I was thinking about getting a Phantom in 5.56 instead...you can take those apart right? And would the backpressure be different when running a 5.56 Phantom with 22lr vs a dedicated 22lr suppressor?

Phantoms are sealed.

The Tac 16 is user servicable.

The 5.56 can's should add enough back pressure, but they are also going to make that gun really front heavy.

What about this from the Tactical Innovations website re: the Tac16--

quote:

Since .22LR ammunition of any configuration should never be shot through the TAC16 suppressor, it should not be necessary to disassemble the suppressor for cleaning.

Liability issues, or are there probs running 22lr through the tac16?

Just found this on their website too:

quote:

Many shooters want to use a .22LR conversion kit on their M16/AR15. Although the .22LR ammo will not damage the suppressor and sound reduction is excellent, we don't recommend it for two primary reasons. First, the TAC16 suppressor has a threaded front cap to allow cleaning or servicing if necessary. Shooting .22LR ammo through the can will literally solder it together, making it impossible to get apart in the future if you wanted or needed to. Secondly, as lead builds up in the suppressor, eventually when you shoot a .223 through the suppressor, one or more chunks of lead will break loose and hit the bullet while its still inside the suppressor and the bullet will tumble and impact the baffles and the endcap, causing extensive damage to the suppressor.

quote:

Shooting .22LR ammo through the can will literally solder it together, making it impossible to get apart in the future if you wanted or needed to.

That's odd since they don't say the same thing about their 22 cans. Must be a laiblity thing with the 22 vs. .223/5.56 shooting.

Thinking about it a little more, maybe if you are shooting both the 22 and 5.56 through the suppressor they are worried about the higher heat generated by the 5.56 melting the lead into position casue the soldering they describe.

I took my Tac 65 apart yesterday after about 4000 rds, there was build up on both the blast chamber and front baffel as well as the end cap. The rest of the baffels were not all that dirty.

I did soak it in a Ed's Red solution prior to the cleaning (that may have helped loosed things up). But the end caps came right off, I did anti seize them the last time I cleaned it, as I do every time I disassemble it. But even shooting a high round count through it in a day, it's never reallly all that hot as compared to a 5.56 suppressor.

Heat is the enemy!

Damn, glad I didn't have to go through all that - almost ordered one a couple weeks back until I got a line on a Vector V89k that I wanted far more.

Keep us updated on if it runs unsuppressed at all - I'd hate to have to dedicate a can to one to get it to work reliably.

Is this a problem only on the short-barreled Spike's uppers, or does it occur on their 14.5" uppers, too?

Oat

Well shoot! I just ordered that exact one last week. I'm not going to be happy if I have the same issues. I know just running a Ceiner kit in a regular AR15 makes it a lot more difficult to clean than a dedicated 22lr upper, but I've never had any reliability issues with mine.

Anxious to hear how yours turns out Agony.

Oat,
Not sure. From the looks of things over on arfcom, most folks are quite happy with their uppers. I've ran a Ciener through a 14.5" without any issues unsuppressed.

argolfer,
I think things are going to turn out okay. I really suspect that my hunch is correct...that I just need a couple of springs to experiment with. On the Spike's forum at arfcom, he thinks I just simply need to cut down the spring even further. Sounds reasonable to me.
Once I get the right length, hopefully it will help future owners with any reliability issues. Maybe then Spike's can send the proper length spring, or even a complete spring kit.

I have the exact same setup as agony and I am very pleased. I haven't had any failure to extract issues. Occasionally I will have a failure to eject but I haven't tried trimming my spring yet either. I did put a lighter hammer spring in and that seemed to help things a bit. I would say if you want an upper get it. Spike's will stand behind their product 100%. If you get it and try to tune it and things just don't work, give Spike's a call and they WILL take care of you. As far as failure to extract, it sounds like your chamber might be a little tight agony. Do you have calipers that you can measure it with? I can measure mine if you'd like me to.

Also, the reason Spike's doesn't trim the springs down is because different operators will use different ammo and suppressed vs. un-suppressed makes a big difference. So they let each user adjust their rifle to function on their particular setup. I know it would be nice to not have to tinker and adjust but its a fact of life when shooting .22 in an automatic setup. 22 ammo just doesn't lend itself to being a one setup fits all variables type of cartridge. Also, you can order a spring kit for the upper. It comes with 1 lighter power recoil spring, 2 regular springs, and 1 lightened hammer spring.

quote:

Every weekend, I've slowly done all the 'fixes', and every weekend I got more and more disappointed.

Normally I dont come to this section of the forum,but prudence demands it.
Have I steered you wrong before?

You answered your own question without reading your own threads.

Lets scratch our chins shall we
Basically you just fucked up one of spikes uppers trying to be a cheap ass.

Hmmmmm...fake can,standard velocity shit ammo,no run.

Real can boosting back pressure to hyper velocity premium 22 ammo using shit bulk 22...worky great!!
What does that tell you?

You got what you ordered from Spike: a upper designed for a can...but you try to go shitty on the cheap and not use said can for his intended build.tsk tsk

No can?...use hi-velocity good ammo.
With can?....use bulk standard cheap shit.

Now you have a basket of bullshit for a lesson that is not Spikes fault

I've known Spike for years; he's at every major show in florida.How he does it i'll never comprehend because he literally has the "patience of Job".The stupidity he can tolerate from 5$ - 600$ customers is a lesson in service i'll never master.
Within 2 shows working his table I would cave some idiots teeth in.How he does it is beyond me

Call him...tell him your foolish fiddlin and he will send you new parts at his expense.

quote:

Shooting .22LR ammo through the can will literally solder it together, making it impossible to get apart in the future if you wanted or needed to.

I'll solve that if you pm me i'll send you some "Boeing" dry lube so it never happens

As for lead chunks..clean in between ammo.
Those company caveats were written for the lazy.

quote:

Originally posted by horse:

quote:

Every weekend, I've slowly done all the 'fixes', and every weekend I got more and more disappointed.

Normally I dont come to this section of the forum,but prudence demands it.
Have I steered you wrong before?

You answered your own question without reading your own threads.

Lets scratch our chins shall we
Basically you just fucked up one of spikes uppers trying to be a cheap ass.

Hmmmmm...fake can,standard velocity shit ammo,no run.

Real can boosting back pressure to hyper velocity premium 22 ammo using shit bulk 22...worky great!!
What does that tell you?

You got what you ordered from Spike: a upper designed for a can...but you try to go shitty on the cheap and not use said can for his intended build.tsk tsk

No can?...use hi-velocity good ammo.
With can?....use bulk standard cheap shit.

Now you have a basket of bullshit for a lesson that is not Spikes fault

I've known Spike for years; he's at every major show in florida.How he does it i'll never comprehend because he literally has the "patience of Job".The stupidity he can tolerate from 5$ - 600$ customers is a lesson in service i'll never master.
Within 2 shows working his table I would cave some idiots teeth in.How he does it is beyond me

Call him...tell him your foolish fiddlin and he will send you new parts at his expense.

You may know Spike's but you sure don't know Spike's products. Do a little research next time and control yourself in your posts. Spike's leaves the springs long because they don't know the exact setup each customer plans to use. Due to the nature of 22 ammo the springs must be cut/tuned to your setup. Spike's recommends this and includes a sheet explaining the process and directing you to do so with EVERY single ST-22 upper you buy. This is standard process in the world of .22 AR-15 using these certain springs and Agony has not screwed anything up. As a matter of fact, if you had read more carefully he even stated that in the Spike's Tactical section of AR15.com Tom (from Spike's Tactical) has told him that he may need to cut even more off of the spring.

I'm sure agony will be waiting for your apology.

quote:

I'm sure agony will be waiting for your apology.

There will be no apology.I've known agony looooooong before you showed up here(he's prolly the first 5 mem's)
And I talk to him as if we've had dinner once a week since

Spike has to write that BS because of "fiddlers" such as you that cannot comprehend....cause well.....if he builds it someone will just have to fk'n screw with it and bitch

I've known him long enough to hear him say"I built it right...BUT!"

I've told him he's famous coast to coast as guys sell off there "Spike build" with pride when it comes to advertising.

He dont even realize it
what a tolereant guy and true customer service ace,wether a 5$ item or full build

No need to get defensive guys, it's all good.

I talked to Angela on the phone today, and rather than have them send me free parts, I paid for a few springs to tinker with. I don't expect anything free from them. I realize the extreme variability in shooting 22lr, and should've learned some lessons from my tinkering with a sig mosquito with/without a can and came up with the conclusion before this project. But alas, tunnel vision had me fixated elsewhere.

Sig_Owner_P229,
I think I had a typo in the original post somewhere. It should read failure to eject. The extractor works perfectly.
Also, I should add that my upper didn't come with an instruction sheet regarding spring cutting. I think that was added to later orders due to the few early reported probs.



horse,
Spike's has treated me well.
They even sent me a free shirt and some other stuff as a trade for permission to use some of my pics for his ads.

Wish we had more time when we were in FL. Would've loved to have gone to the range with you and Wade, or at least met up for some chatter and imbibing.

quote:

Originally posted by horse:

quote:

I'm sure agony will be waiting for your apology.

There will be no apology.I've known agony looooooong before you showed up here(he's prolly the first 5 mem's)
And I talk to him as if we've had dinner once a week since

Spike has to write that BS because of "fiddlers" such as you that cannot comprehend....cause well.....if he builds it someone will just have to fk'n screw with it and bitch

I've known him long enough to hear him say"I built it right...BUT!"

I've told him he's famous coast to coast as guys sell off there "Spike build" with pride when it comes to advertising.

He dont even realize it
what a tolereant guy and true customer service ace,wether a 5$ item or full build

Sorry for my comment on your previous post. I read it as an attack on somebody for doing something what is recommended and encouraged by the manufacturer. However, I don't think you comprehend the situation yet. While Spike's builds great stuff, the 22 uppers often times do need adjustment. Just because somebody adjusts things doesn't make them a fiddler that just has to mess things up. Due to the great variability of 22 ammo and the setups it is used on/with this is a necessary evil. Spike's hasn't written any "BS because of fiddlers" he has written advice on how to make adjustments to a system that will not run on everything without adjustments. It is the same reason people sometimes need to adjust RDIAS's to get them to run smoothly. They are made to run on a multitude of different setups so you cannot create one design to satisfy all of the constraints. Would you call somebody that adjusts their RDIAS to get it to work properly a fiddler that "will just have to fk'n screw with it"?

Agony, I'm glad Spike's is taking care of you. They're truly on top in terms of CS!!!