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And box 4h is to list any additional markings that will apear on the receiver. So when I leave that space blank and my form1 comes back approved. Why would I put any more markings on the receiver? I agree it is a little unclear, but there is a letter from the ATF stating you dont have to do it. HELLO
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What does the second paragraph say? It seems pretty clear to me. You must put make, S/N, caliber, manufacturer, city and state. It points out if you are making a title I firearm to a title II, you must add your name/city/state also on the firearm. mark  Alan Keyes is as Pro-Gun as they come! Even Automatics! See http://www.alankeyes.com/video?clip=070501issues3 for what Alan says. |
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You have been given good solid advice by people who have years of experience and knowledge with Form 1's and Form 4's. Many letters sent from the BATF are misleading, some wrong and many have been reversed with follow-up letters. If you chose to ignore the proceedures that 99% of us have followed, hey its your life. But please don't continue to spread mis-information.
A guide to doing it the correct way: http://www.gunco.net/forums/f111/how-get-sbr-approval-28200/ Here is the ATF Publication 5300.4, read section 479.102: http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2005/p53004/27cfr_part479.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to against every government, and what no just government should refuse, or rest on inference. - Thomas Jefferson |
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Yup, the second paragraph states that if your making a firearm you must engrave that information. I have yet to dispute that. But if you care to read on to the next paragraph the agent states that he is not making a firearm, he is modifying an existing weapon, so the original information already on the weapon is adopted for these purposes. In this case this letter was the follow up letter correcting the previous one where he was instructed to engrave the weapon. You are arguing with me when the its in black and white right in front of you, this gentlemen was told by the ATF, the people I know that modified a receiver on a form1 were told by the ATF. Whats the problem. Are you guys wrong? Or are the people who made the guidelines and laws wrong? Cuz im just listening to them. If what the ATF instructs me to do is misinformation then maybe you should politely ask them to stop spreading it. Thanks fellas |
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This message has been edited. Last edited by: cARpenter15, |
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Because Im just repeating what I was told.|
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Ok I cant resist this one. Check out here http://www.atf.treas.gov/forms/pdfs/f53202.pdf Now scroll down to the definitions of terms and look what the word MANUFACTURER and what it means to the ATF. Now look over at the instuctions specifiaclly 3.d, Even though Im registering a new NFA item I dont have a type 07 or type 10 FEDERAL FIREARMS LICENSE so by the ATF's definition I am not a Manufacturer. So why would I need to follow the guidelines set forth for manufacturers marking weapons again??? |
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I was going to write down something witty here, but I will keep to just educating... I will try to keep it simple and to the point. The form you have pointed us to (commonly called a form 2) is ONLY for an type 07/10 manufacturer who has paid their Special occupational Tax (SOT). This means you have a manufacturing FFL and paid your SOT and are a Class 2 to use this form. Everyone else must use a form 1 and pay the tax. It is ONLY for licensees. A non-licensee cannot use this form and it is not for them. Throughout regulations, one cannot take a piece of regulation and then another from somewhere else and make it what one wants it to say. Some of our friends are trying to do this. They even have gotten more confused when ATF messed up and had to revise what it initially said. My best to you. mark This message has been edited. Last edited by: budam, Alan Keyes is as Pro-Gun as they come! Even Automatics! See http://www.alankeyes.com/video?clip=070501issues3 for what Alan says. |
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This may be obvious to everyone else, but when we do the engraving, should we use the original serial number? Do we need to engrave the same serial number again with the new manufacturer info?
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You need to have name,S/N, city, state. If you are making a title II from a title I firearm, you can use the information already on the firearm, except you still must put your name, city, state. No need to duplicate anything else. The vast majority of form 1 makers just need to add the name, city, zip. mark This message has been edited. Last edited by: budam, Alan Keyes is as Pro-Gun as they come! Even Automatics! See http://www.alankeyes.com/video?clip=070501issues3 for what Alan says. |
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The bottom of the form 2 was the only place I can seem to find where the ATF actually offers their definition of what a manufacturer is.
Like I also said, the topic has been pretty much derailed. How bout we agree to disagree? Ill do what the ATF tells me to, and you guys do, well... whatever. And we can agree to disagree. Oh and thanks for not trying to be witty. |
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The regulations are found on the ATF web site - http://www.atf.gov. To make it easier for everyone, you can get the regulations at http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2005/p53004/index.htm. Scroll to bottom and download the whole 4.5MB file so you can then do word searches, etc. Save the PDF for later review. WHen going through these regulations, understand that they are from various places and what one section says may not be applicable to another section. An example is title I vs. title II firearms sections. So if you plan on making a title II firearm (NFA) you want to go to the title II (NFA) part of the regulations. There is nothing to disagree on, once one has read the regulations and understands them. If you have read the regulations in full then, maybe, we can disagree. But at this point it is more important to get you into the regulations so you can understand what they are, not what I or someone else says without having read the regulations. Yes, I have read most of the regulations, but there is SO much to read that it is easy to forget parts of it. My concern for you is to make sure you do the right thing to not get yourself in trouble. Just because an ATf employee makes a mistake does not excuse you or me from doing what the law says. I and I am sure others will be glad to help you as we do not want to get you in trouble. If you still do not believe us, then I would suggest that you talk to a local ATF inspector to make sure you are 100% in the right. I sure am not perfect but I spend a lot of time in the regulations as a 07/SOT = C2 manufacturer. I know the parts about C2 manufacturing better than form 1, but most of the regulations are the same for title II (NFA) firearms. mark This message has been edited. Last edited by: budam, Alan Keyes is as Pro-Gun as they come! Even Automatics! See http://www.alankeyes.com/video?clip=070501issues3 for what Alan says. |
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cARpenper15,
I think somewhere along the way this got personal, its not. I completely get that the ATF sent a letter telling you not to worry about it. I have received three letters from the ATF myself, on the first I received a "ok" followed by a 2nd letter within four days saying "...sorry, no". On my next letter I received a prompt reply which I actually posted here somewhere (SBR'ering a Storm carbine). To which another member posted his letter from the ATF on the same subject with 180 degree 'opinion'. We are not attacking you, just trying to help. ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to against every government, and what no just government should refuse, or rest on inference. - Thomas Jefferson |
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If anyone thinks I am making it so, I sure do not mean to do so. Please accept my apology. I just do not want to see someone get in trouble because of peoples limited knowledge of title II (NFA) firearms law. There are a lot of misconceptions out there and some very well meaning people who just get it wrong. Yes, even ATF confuses people with incorrect letters. That is why I suggest contacting your local office inspector. I have dealt with a bunch of them over the years and I have always found them to be well meaning and helpful. mark Alan Keyes is as Pro-Gun as they come! Even Automatics! See http://www.alankeyes.com/video?clip=070501issues3 for what Alan says. |
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you, sir, know nothing of which you speak. please seek your own understanding before trying to pass off impressions as fact, especially in legal matters that could end in felony charges for anyone who follows what you say. And the Zen Master said, "We'll see..." |
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No offense has been taken and nothing was taken personally. This whole thread has encouraged me to contact the ATF again to reverify what I was told. Guess what. Thats right, they told me something different this time  Sure is difficult when the people in charge are unsure of the regulations themselves. Even worse when they have no accountability in the matter. And for turnercm1776, in case you didnt read the whole thread. I did not just pull that statement out of my ass. That is almost verbatim what I was told by the BATFE. Going on that information the somewhat vague guidelines and regulations written on various forms started to make sense. Thank you very much for your concern though. |
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I am glad you contacted them again, better safe than sorry
 Have a good one and happy SBR'ing! ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to against every government, and what no just government should refuse, or rest on inference. - Thomas Jefferson |
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You have to love that ATF letter, they say that they were correct and incorrect in the same sentence.
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LOL, our government in true form! Our tax dollars at work...twice ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to against every government, and what no just government should refuse, or rest on inference. - Thomas Jefferson |
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So, does the SBR have to be stamped if using a form 1 or not? I have read this whole thread 3 times and am very confussed(not hard to do these days).
thank you Brian |
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