I am about to purchase my first suppressor. I am purchasing it from someone out of DFW and he asked if I wanted to go through a trust and explained it was easy and didn't cost anything. I've heard that my local sheriff will sign off on the the form, so is there a need to go through a trust? Can anyone give me pros or cons to doing so?

Thanks.

The pros are no fingerprints, no photos, no CLEO signoff.

The cons are the trouble and time of setting up the trust.

For me the cost of the trust and the time to set it up were less than fingerprints, photos, and CLEO sign off for the first NFA item. Now I am set and simply mail in my paperwork. However, there are others who are more neurotic that must make the trust procedure more difficult.

I went with the Trust because Maryland Sucks. In my county the sherriff or County PD (2 different agency's) will not sign off, they refer you to the Maryland State Police. They will sign off on all NFA items. But it takes them 3-4 weeks to do your paper work.

A friend of mine lives in York County PA and he walks in to the local PD, they do the finger prints right there and sing off while he's waiting.

If Maryland was that easy (and in other counties then mine it is) I would have done the traditions route with all mine.

As it is the trust allows me to skip the MSP bullshit and extra waiting.

There are no cons to going the trust route so long as your state doesn't have any strange laws on the books regarding the use/creation/funding/etc., of trusts.

A lot of folks read about trusts and say "it's too good to be true, there must be a catch!" but there is not. Language contained within the NFA of 1934 allows for the use of trusts and some other corporate entities to obtain NFA items. In short, it would literally take an act of congress to prohibit the use of trusts.

In almost all cases (depending on state law related to trusts), establishing a trust can be done using a ~$35 copy of Quicken Willmaker and the cost (if any) to get your trust notarized.

I made the decision to use a trust to aquire a suppressor for the simple fact that getting finger printed would require taking several hours off of work. Also, I could not get confimation that my local CLEO would sign off and playing phone tag or running from office to office would take time I don't have to waste.

Aside from the fact that a trust allows you to avoid getting printed/photographed/chasing down a CLEO, it also allows you to add someone else to the trust. If you purchase an NFA item as an individual (prints, etc.,) only you can possess the item. In fact, if you were to store your NFA items in your gunsafe and your wife/gf/family member/etc., had access to the safe when you weren't home, you'd be in violation of the law. If anyone lives with you simply add them to your trust and avoid the headache.

Finally, I downloaded Quicken Willmaker and printed my trust out approximately 20 minutes after the install completed (including 5 minutes for the program to auto-update itself). That next morning, I stopped by my bank on the way to work and they notarized my trust for free in 5 minutes.

That weekend, I handed 2 photocopies of my trust to my dealer, he looked them over and the process was underway.

I'm interested in doing the Trust thing here in Arizona. I found a link to instructions. Is this generally how it's done?

Link

That'd be it. If you are doing an "individual" trust (no spouse involved) it's even easier.

- Name the trust your full legal name

- Name a successor trustee (someone who will control the trust if you die, don't worry, they can't do anything with your stuff as long as you're still alive). You should make sure this person is not prohibited from owning NFA items (over 21, not a felon, etc.,) just incase something does happen to you.

- Name a 3rd party who would attest that your successor should get control of your trust. Your succssor would need this person to agree that you are incapacitated (brain dead, in a coma, etc.,) before they could control the trust.

- Fund the trust with something simple that you own. I chose an old .22 rifle. If the trust will be only for your NFA items, make sure it's something you don't plan to dispose of anytime soon. The less adding/removing/dickering with the trust assets you do, the less chance you have of screwing something up and having the ATF kick your forms back and making you wait longer.

- Print out your trust. in Virginia, that came out to 6 pages plus the "schedule A" (list of assets in the trust) as well as 6-8 pages of "fluff" that you can toss (explanation of terms, letter to the successor, etc., stuff with no relevance to the trust itself)

- Take the trust to a notary and sign it in front of them.

- Make a copy or 2 and put the original away in a safe place.

On a side note, look around online, I googled Willmaker and ended up finding the download version for $20

I did the trust route on my last 4 silencers. IMHO there are no downsides. It took me an hour with quicken willmaker to draft the trust docs and a drive to the notary. Whenever I get something to add to the trust I just annotate the schedule A myself. Simple stuff. My LEO is a dick and wouldn't sign for his own brother. Thats fine. He doesn't have to.

For me, starting a trust was a necessity. I will eventually be deployed, and while i'm gone my family might need to move my NFA items. Without them being trustees, they could all go to jail for even touching these things. As trustees, they have the same rights to operate, handle and transport my NFA items that I do. Consider it if you have family.

quote:

Originally posted by turnercm1776:
For me, starting a trust was a necessity. I will eventually be deployed, and while i'm gone my family might need to move my NFA items. Without them being trustees, they could all go to jail for even touching these things. As trustees, they have the same rights to operate, handle and transport my NFA items that I do. Consider it if you have family.

Now that is something to keep in mind. I am also getting ready to purchase my first Class III and have also been wondering about which way to go, but I will now be going the way of the trust.

Thanks for all the input. I've decided to go the trust route also. The dealer I'm working with is even going to set the trust up for me. I'm assuming that is okay???

Having your dealer set up the trust would be fine. It doesn't matter who actually "writes" the trust, it only matters who's name(s) are on it and who signs it in front of the notary.

I have been contemplating setting up a single trust to manage all my assets to minimize any burden to the successor. I don't currently own any NFA items but am interested in getting some in the future.

I'll research my state laws to be sure, but just based on a general understanding of trust requirements:

1) How difficult is it to transfer items in/out of the trust?

2) Is there any downside to having non-NFA items in the same trust with NFA items? 401K, stocks, vehicles, title 1 firearms?

3) Does the BATFE need to be notified of every change in the trust, whether NFA or non-NFA items are added or subtracted?

4) Should it become necessary, how difficult is it to change the trust successor?

5) Does the trust successor's signature need to be notarized?

6) What level of funding does the trust require? How difficult is it to change the amount or source of the trust funding?

7) What are the implications to the trust if moving from one state to another?

Thanks for any input on these questions!

quote:

Originally posted by mike253:
Having your dealer set up the trust would be fine. It doesn't matter who actually "writes" the trust, it only matters who's name(s) are on it and who signs it in front of the notary.

thats technically not true....in Virginia, the dealer could easily be charged with the Unauthorized Practice of Law, which is a crime in the Commonwealth....if you want to set up your own trust, thats fine, if you want to get advice from someone on how to do it yourself, also fine, but be very careful about letting someone else do it for you, because it IS upl and will get charged....

1) transfer items in/out of the trust?: I sold a suppressor that was transfered to my willmaker trust, and it was as easy as deleting the line item from my Schedule A. Additing is just as simple.

2) Is there any downside to having non-NFA items in the same trust with NFA items?: One piece of advice with NFA trusts that I see again and again is to not mix non-NFA items with your NFA trust. I agree with the advice.

Use a lawyer for non-NFA trusts. Do a separate NFA trust with willmaker, or a lawyer.

3) Does the BATFE need to be notified of every change in the trust?: There is no need to notify the BATFE of any change to your trust, additions, subtractions. If it's an NFA trust, they'll know when you add. I send in an updated Schedule A with recent additions, subtractions, because lately, they have been asking for them - the Schedule A. All a schedule A is is a listing of your NFA items, a listing of everything in the trust.

4) Should it become necessary, how difficult is it to change the trust successor?: Changing your trust is not hard. In willmaker, you edit, print, destroy old copy. With a lawyer, they do it for a fee.

5) Does the trust successor's signature need to be notarized?: Willmaker prints out the page that needs the notary stamp. See question 7, as a notary may be a state specific requirement.

6) What level of funding does the trust require?: Don't know what you mean about funding a trust.

7) What are the implications to the trust if moving from one state to another?: Moving to another state may mean you should check the new states laws on trusts. In willmaker, you pick the state you are in and they use the trust laws of that state. If you move, you may have to redo it, or it would be advisable to at least have it checked.
zzz

quote:

Originally posted by f2:
1) transfer items in/out of the trust?: I sold a suppressor that was transfered to my willmaker trust, and it was as easy as deleting the line item from my Schedule A. Additing is just as simple.

2) Is there any downside to having non-NFA items in the same trust with NFA items?: One piece of advice with NFA trusts that I see again and again is to not mix non-NFA items with your NFA trust. I agree with the advice.

Use a lawyer for non-NFA trusts. Do a separate NFA trust with willmaker, or a lawyer.

3) Does the BATFE need to be notified of every change in the trust?: There is no need to notify the BATFE of any change to your trust, additions, subtractions. If it's an NFA trust, they'll know when you add. I send in an updated Schedule A with recent additions, subtractions, because lately, they have been asking for them - the Schedule A. All a schedule A is is a listing of your NFA items, a listing of everything in the trust.

4) Should it become necessary, how difficult is it to change the trust successor?: Changing your trust is not hard. In willmaker, you edit, print, destroy old copy. With a lawyer, they do it for a fee.

5) Does the trust successor's signature need to be notarized?: Willmaker prints out the page that needs the notary stamp. See question 7, as a notary may be a state specific requirement.

6) What level of funding does the trust require?: Don't know what you mean about funding a trust.

7) What are the implications to the trust if moving from one state to another?: Moving to another state may mean you should check the new states laws on trusts. In willmaker, you pick the state you are in and they use the trust laws of that state. If you move, you may have to redo it, or it would be advisable to at least have it checked.
zzz

Thanks for the input f2...this really helps with my upcoming decisions!

Interesting stuff guys.

Anyone know if this is any more or less difficult in NC?

Thanks
cc

Guy on another forum turned me on to this link
http://hooperordnance.com/page3.aspx
Click on the bar on the leftside that says "NFA TRUST EXAMPLE" to download the forms, delete where it says delete and add your relevant information. Print it out and have it notarized. Hope this helps

ETA:shouldnt have a problem owning NFA stuff here in NC

An example of someone who left line 4h blank in his ATF form 1, done with a Trust, and thus did not have to engrave his SBR'd lowers.

form 1 q, m4carbine.net, member demigod
zzz

At the bottom of the form 1 it specifically states that if you are converting an existing weapon into a NFA firearm to enter serial number into 4g and mfg info into 4a. Only reason you would put your name on it and create a serial number is if you built it from say a 80% receiver. No need for additional markings, so 4h would be left blank whether registering with a trust or individual