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SBR Question - Posted here since it is a NFA item like suppressors Login/Join 
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Para, LDD, or Chris - If I have posted this incorrectly please let me know or move or remove this thread. I Posted here because I know the knowledge base related to NFA items reads and posts here often...

To my question - I have an SBR not on my Heavy D Trust that I want to list for sale. When I find a potential buyer that is in-state or out of state what is the process and cost to me, as the seller, for transferring my NFA registered SBR to the buyers Class 3 dealer?

Thanks Mark
 
Posts: 2644 | Location: MS | Registered: December 16, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The cost to you is nothing, unless you choose to pay some of the other buyer’s cost.

If you sell the gun in-state, basically the buyer fills out the Form 4 to transfer it to them and pays $200 to the ATF. You hold on to the firearm until it gets approved (which takes up to a year), and once the buyer gets the paperwork, you give them the firearm.

For an out of state buyer, you have to go through a FFL in the buyer’s state, and that’s an extra $200 dollars they buyer pays since they will usually pay to transfer the firearm from you to the FFL, and then have to pay again to transfer from the FFL to themselves.
 
Posts: 2176 | Location: South FL | Registered: February 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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If you can back-convert it to a pistol or rifle (however it started life) then you could remove it from the NFA database and sell it as a non-NFA gun. Even if the buyer wants an SBR this can be a much faster (certainly cheaper if out of state) process as the buyer can do a 30 day form 1 for the SBR, once your removal is recognized. They would need to re-engrave with their info.

Edited per Dean's post below.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Mike748,
 
Posts: 226 | Location: Texas | Registered: December 20, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Dwill and Mike - Thanks to both of you for taking the time to respond and providing the details each of you did. Because this one started its life as a SIG 556P I may consider converting it back to a pistol and ask that NFA remove it from their registration. The time and paperwork required to sell, receive the approval, and transfer an SBR vs. being able to sell out right this as a pistol (also because the current value difference is not a lot) I might go through the process of getting it declassified and then sell it as a pistol....

Thanks again guys for your responses - greatly appreciate your support.....Mark
 
Posts: 2644 | Location: MS | Registered: December 16, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Dean of Law
Picture of heavyd
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It has been made into a rifle so it can no longer be a pistol, even if you remove it from the NFA registry.

Once any pistol has been made into a rifle it can no longer be a pistol.


H. Dean Phillips
$99 Gun Trusts
https://nfalawyers.com
 
Posts: 6550 | Location: Georgia | Registered: December 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Dean - Thank you Sir for responding...This now reduces my options down to what Dwill detailed....Thanks Again for responding Sir...Mark
 
Posts: 2644 | Location: MS | Registered: December 16, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Oriental Redneck
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Mark,
I just took the upper off, sold it, and put a non-NFA (16-inch bbl length minimum) upper on. Now, you just have a Title I firearm. You can fire off a letter to the NFA branch to ask them to remove your previous SBR from the Registry, since it is no longer a NFA item.
 
Posts: 20340 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: September 04, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by 12131:
Mark,
I just took the upper off, sold it, and put a non-NFA (16-inch bbl length minimum) upper on. Now, you just have a Title I firearm. You can fire off a letter to the NFA branch to ask them to remove your previous SBR from the Registry, since it is no longer a NFA item.


If it’s a SIG 556, the upper is the serialed numbered part. You can’t just swap uppers like on an AR.

Also, note that if you engraved the NFA required info on a pistol you converted, that’s going to reduce the value as compared to an unconverted pistol.
 
Posts: 2176 | Location: South FL | Registered: February 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Well guys this SBR did start its life as a SIG 556 factory pistol and I did have the upper engraved following the NFA guidelines with my name, city, and state because the upper on this odel does carry the SN#.

Based on Dean’s comments I guess my only bet is to sell it as an SBR or keep it in my collection....Having built a Colt SBR about three years ago, I have not shot the SIG SBR since receiving my stamp on the Colt.....Mark
 
Posts: 2644 | Location: MS | Registered: December 16, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by sigarmsp226:
Well guys this SBR did start its life as a SIG 556 factory pistol and I did have the upper engraved following the NFA guidelines with my name, city, and state because the upper on this odel does carry the SN#.

Based on Dean’s comments I guess my only bet is to sell it as an SBR or keep it in my collection....Having built a Colt SBR about three years ago, I have not shot the SIG SBR since receiving my stamp on the Colt.....Mark


You can remove the upper so the gun is no longer in SBR configuration and now you have just a Title I AR-15 rifle lower. You can't make it a pistol, but you could put a 16"+ upper on it. You could also sell the upper and lower as an upper and lower, unassembled, and somebody could register via a Form 1 and reassemble, albeit with additional engraving.

Is the lower engraved also? If it isn't, it's even more appealing since it's the serialized part and the next guy could just engrave the lower, with is most common anyway.
 
Posts: 3650 | Location: Iowa | Registered: February 24, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Music's over turn
out the lights
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Mark, I sent you an email about this problem.


David W.

Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud. -Sophocles
 
Posts: 3406 | Location: Winston Salem, N.C. | Registered: May 30, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by DaBigBR:
quote:
Originally posted by sigarmsp226:
Well guys this SBR did start its life as a SIG 556 factory pistol and I did have the upper engraved following the NFA guidelines with my name, city, and state because the upper on this odel does carry the SN#.

Based on Dean’s comments I guess my only bet is to sell it as an SBR or keep it in my collection....Having built a Colt SBR about three years ago, I have not shot the SIG SBR since receiving my stamp on the Colt.....Mark


You can remove the upper so the gun is no longer in SBR configuration and now you have just a Title I AR-15 rifle lower. You can't make it a pistol, but you could put a 16"+ upper on it. You could also sell the upper and lower as an upper and lower, unassembled, and somebody could register via a Form 1 and reassemble, albeit with additional engraving.

Is the lower engraved also? If it isn't, it's even more appealing since it's the serialized part and the next guy could just engrave the lower, with is most common anyway.


Again, on the 556, the upper is the the firearm, the engraved part, and the serial numbered part. The lower is not like a AR lower. It’s not serialized, not a firearm, and can be sold freely without going through a FFL. To turn it into a Title 1 gun with a 16” barrel, you either have to swap out the barrel on the upper (which is a bit of work), or buy a complete 16” upper, which is considered a firearm and requires going through a FFL (unless you get one in a private sale). Buying a new upper or swapping out the barrel will probably be a money losing proposition on the package deal.

Selling the upper alone to someone who has a 556 lower may be an option, altogether the buyer would have to be careful about not seen as having an unregistered SBR.
 
Posts: 2176 | Location: South FL | Registered: February 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by heavyd:
It has been made into a rifle so it can no longer be a pistol, even if you remove it from the NFA registry.

Once any pistol has been made into a rifle it can no longer be a pistol.


Is this specifically due to it being listed in the NFRTR? I thought ATF ruling 2011-4 clarified that pistol to rifle back to pistol was perfectly fine. The ATF even list it in their firearms FAQ:

quote:
Can I lawfully make a pistol into a rifle without registering that firearm?

Assuming that the firearm was originally a pistol, the resulting firearm, with an attached shoulder stock, is not an NFA firearm if it has a barrel of 16 inches or more in length.

Pursuant to ATF Ruling 2011-4, such rifle may later be unassembled and again configured as a pistol. Such configuration would not be considered a “weapon made from a rifle” as defined by 26 U.S.C. § 5845(a)(4).

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/q...-registering-firearm

I know a LOT of people have interpreted this further to mean that if a pistol is made into an SBR then it can be turned back into a pistol, but I don't know if the ATF has ever issued an opinion letter to that effect. I've never seen one for that specific situation.


-------------------------------------
Some old German classic Sigs and some new polymer Sigs...
 
Posts: 203 | Location: OKC | Registered: July 21, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I know a LOT of people have interpreted this further to mean that if a pistol is made into an SBR then it can be turned back into a pistol, but I don't know if the ATF has ever issued an opinion letter to that effect. I've never seen one for that specific situation.


Phoenix - This describes my situation exactly - My SBR started life as a pistol and I followed the NFA requirements to register it from a pistol to an SBR....once my approved documentation and stamp arrived I had the UPPER (carries the SN on this specific model AR pistol) engraved and added a stock....Mark
 
Posts: 2644 | Location: MS | Registered: December 16, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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