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Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

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Originally posted by 12131:

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Originally posted by greco:
I think that given they had only a pistol against several rifles it would have been suicidal not to surrender. On the other hand, I would have thought they had a radio or some form of commo device to call in for support. A copter could have been there very quickly. But then why was our military out patrolling in a dangerous area unarmed?

Yeah, 2 guys with pistols sitting in their vehicles. A bunch of Mexicans sprang up on them pointing rifles. It's ridiculous to think it's unacceptable for them to surrender their weapons, unless you just want them to commit suicide by Mexicans.

Yeah, forgive me, but I do think it's unacceptable that US soldiers are surrendering to another country on US soil. Yes I do. Regardless of the circumstances, it's pathetic.

I've been on this forum for a decent amount of time, so Balze Halze, I'm going to call you out after many of your chest pounding on various topics. When have you put on a uniform, military, civ gov, leo or otherwise?
You seem very comfortable on calling out those who do uphold their duty, which include the ever changing ROEs.
Pray tell us peasants, what you have done in this role, that would make it less pathetic.

The Mexicans didn't know they had gone North of the Rio Grande?!? Bullshit. It's time to put an end to all this border crap. Put troops on the border, kick the narco-gangs off our side of the border. If the corrupt federales come over the border to protect the coyotes, disarm THEM at the muzzle of a gun and send them home in their underwear.

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:

quote:

Originally posted by greco:
I think that given they had only a pistol against several rifles it would have been suicidal not to surrender. On the other hand, I would have thought they had a radio or some form of commo device to call in for support. A copter could have been there very quickly. But then why was our military out patrolling in a dangerous area unarmed?

Yeah, 2 guys with pistols sitting in their vehicles. A bunch of Mexicans sprang up on them pointing rifles. It's ridiculous to think it's unacceptable for them to surrender their weapons, unless you just want them to commit suicide by Mexicans.

This!!!!!

It seems very easy for armchair quarterbacks to criticize, does it not?

IMO, the fault lies with the commanders of the US troops who were on the scene! Knowing the risks involved (cartels, etc) why were the US servicemen essentially unarmed?

Some commander needs to be replaced, forthwith, and drummed out of the service!!

Gotta love our good old amigos in sunny Mexico. We probably gave Mexico the rifles and equipment their troops were using. Hands across the border and all that.

When operating near the border it is imperative to know at all times which side of the border you are on, for forces on both sides of the border. Many such incidents have occurred worldwide, especially at sea and on waterways. Usually it ends peacefully and gets sorted out but sometimes not.

When I first saw this report I immediately thought there must have been a Mexican 2nd Lt with a compass who didn't know what side of the border he was on, or they just assumed the fence was right on the border. Somebody is due for remedial landnav training.

Knowing how things operate here in the army, it’s most likely the American soldiers did not have ammunition for their weapons.

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Knowing how things operate here in the army, it’s most likely the American soldiers did not have ammunition for their weapons.

^
This and thats the way the us navy works also.
I know this first hand from having to walk a pier we were tied up in Saigon with an EMPTY M 1
There was gunfire all night as the cong and the locals were having little fire fights.

Back in the early eighties when I was doing geothermal land leasing for Phillips Petroleum Company south of ElCentro in the Mexicali/Calexico area there was a story going around about Mexican troops coming across the border to hijack shotguns from bird hunters. The story goes that a group of Americans were bird hunting north of the border and the Mexican came across, demand their guns and took them. A Boarder Patrol aircraft was in the area and notices the disturbance on the ground. He then landed the plane nearby, got out and approached the hunters and asked what was going on. When they explained that the Mexicans had stole their guns, the Boarder Patrol guy demanded they give them back right then or possibly suffer the consequences. The Mexican handed over the guns, departed to the south and everything seemed to be resolved. Nothing was ever reported in the media of this event.

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Originally posted by olfuzzy:
...the Mexican military members believed that the US Army soldiers were south of the border," the statement said.

"Though they were south of the border fence, U.S. soldiers remained in U.S. territory, north of the actual border."

The heart of the matter, IMO, is that that part of the border fence seems to have been mis-built. Why would we have a border fence not actually on the border?

The Mexican military probably thought we had had a competent surveying job done before building. Silly them.

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Originally posted by Ackks:

There are a lot of things that aren't acceptable about this encounter. I don't expect those two boys to committee suicide though taking on 5 guys with rifles with only a pistol. They aren't John Wick

I don't expect them to commit suicide either. I made a mistake saying I was appalled at our troops. I should've said I'm appalled at the military for putting those two soldiers in that position to be defenseless. I still find the whole situation embarrassing. How can you not?

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Originally posted by sooma:

I've been on this forum for a decent amount of time, so Balze Halze, I'm going to call you out after many of your chest pounding on various topics. When have you put on a uniform, military, civ gov, leo or otherwise?
You seem very comfortable on calling out those who do uphold their duty, which include the ever changing ROEs.
Pray tell us peasants, what you have done in this role, that would make it less pathetic.

You're going to call me out? Well ok, you do you. I have nothing to prove on here and never claimed otherwise. I make comments on a public forum and sometimes do so too hastily such as in this very topic. I read quickly, missed some important details, and assumed too much. So I take back what I said about the troops. Put in their situation, I'm sure I'd be relinquishing my weapon as well.

And FYI, I graduated from a federal military Academy and served 15 years in the Navy Reserves.

Not that anyone will likely read this far down in the thread, but it needs to be noted, the border shifts down there along the Rio Grande. The river runs through some areas where it’s relatively shallow. You don’t swim across the river so much as walk across it. Floods change the course of the river from time to time. In some places by a fairly good distance. Where the “border” is considered to be the demark line, regardless of any fixed fence, it moves. It’s entirely possible to be on the south side of the fence yet north of the border. I wouldn’t be surprised to find there maybe areas where the reverse is true.

The only thing I found odd about the reporting was that they reported the Mexican Federals had “what appeared to be rifles”. Otherwise, it appears our guys had sense enough to understand this was all a mistake by the Mexican Federals and would get sorted out. It would have accomplished nothing to go down for the other side’s mistake. Bet they’ll stay north of the fence unless there’s a larger contingent of U.S. troops. It’s possible they weren’t supposed to be south of the fence anyway.

This has happened several times over the last decade. Border patrol officers have been stopped and detained as well inside the U.S. just a couple of years ago. These Mexican troops are not lost they are running cover for their narco states drug mules.

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Originally posted by joel9507:

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Originally posted by olfuzzy:
...the Mexican military members believed that the US Army soldiers were south of the border," the statement said.

"Though they were south of the border fence, U.S. soldiers remained in U.S. territory, north of the actual border."

The heart of the matter, IMO, is that that part of the border fence seems to have been mis-built. Why would we have a border fence not actually on the border?

The Mexican military probably thought we had had a competent surveying job done before building. Silly them.

One of the problems with the border fence is that the border is in the middle of a river bed that is subject to flash flood conditions.

Some local ranchers oppose the fence because it eliminates their access to water for livestock and game animals. Others are wholeheartedly behind the building of the fence as a matter of security.

Borders of a river are difficult because, as stated above, rivers courses change over time.

For example, Oklahoma and Texas have had difficulties with the state line between North Texas and Southern Oklahoma at the Red River and Lake Texhoma. Courts have ruled that the south edge of the Red River is the state line, not the middle, but it moves. There an issue that continues, and it causes difficulties.

If you'd like to read an interesting article that does a pretty good job of explaining, with practical examples, see Drawing The State Line

.

Yeah I've in the middle of the Rio Grande as well, with water around my knees. Some portion of the river had ankle deep water.

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Originally posted by joel9507:

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Originally posted by olfuzzy:
...the Mexican military members believed that the US Army soldiers were south of the border," the statement said.

"Though they were south of the border fence, U.S. soldiers remained in U.S. territory, north of the actual border."

The heart of the matter, IMO, is that that part of the border fence seems to have been mis-built. Why would we have a border fence not actually on the border?

The Mexican military probably thought we had had a competent surveying job done before building. Silly them.

If you’d ever built much fence, particularly where there is “interesting” terrain, you might have a much different view of this. There are places on our tiny little place (less than 1000 acres, but it’d probably be more than 3000 if it was possible to pull it all out flat) where we cut corners and gave up a few square feet because fencing in the 10 to 80 square feet we fenced out would have cost a heck of a lot more than the dirt was worth. I can’t imagine it is different on the southern border.