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Picture of jcsabolt2
posted
I've been asked to be one of the armed security at our church. I have no problem doing it, but with all the legal issues that this could potentially pose if something were to go south or an accident occur has me questioning some things. Do I need to carry insurance to cover myself? How else can I protect my family/assets from exposure from a civil suite? I haven't had a chance to pose any questions to the head of church security yet because I have been sick for the past few weeks so anything you can recommend I can surely bring it up.

I’m in Ohio BTW.


Thanks!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jcsabolt2,


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“Nobody can ever take your integrity away from you. Only you can give up your integrity.” H. Norman Schwarzkopf
 
Posts: 3623 | Registered: July 06, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Caribou gorn
Picture of YellowJacket
posted Hide Post
Do you have any training?

I personally would never accept any sort of "official" position as armed church security. And as an elder of a church, would never recommend my church having an official armed security team unless they are a contracted professional security team with a business license and insurance.



I'm gonna vote for the funniest frog with the loudest croak on the highest log.
 
Posts: 10472 | Location: Marietta, GA | Registered: February 10, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of jcsabolt2
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by YellowJacket:
Do you have any training?


I have my CCW and have taken an advanced handgun combat course about 10 years ago.

Our church actually has a pretty robust security plan that has been reviewed by local law enforcement and have some LEOs on the security team. That's about the extent of what I know right now.


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“Nobody can ever take your integrity away from you. Only you can give up your integrity.” H. Norman Schwarzkopf
 
Posts: 3623 | Registered: July 06, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Still finding my way
Picture of Ryanp225
posted Hide Post
I would make sure it stayed "unofficial". Having a private plan with your fellow church goers is the best idea.
 
Posts: 10827 | Registered: January 04, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Administrator
posted Hide Post
IMO: You're not official unless they are paying for your insurance (at least).

If you take action against someone and they or their estate sues you, on whose shoulders does the liability fall on, the churches or yours? Is the church going to indemnify you if you're named as a defendant in a criminal or civil trial?

If they expect you to do more than a normal CHL holder would do, are they willing to do more for you as the enlisting organization?
 
Posts: 17733 | Registered: August 12, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
they don't want to hire an off duty cop b e c a u s e . . . .
you might find one that would do it for a slice of the collection take





Safety, Situational Awareness and proficiency.



Neck Ties, Hats and ammo brass, Never ,ever touch'em w/o asking first
 
Posts: 54500 | Location: Henry County , Il | Registered: February 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I believe in the
principle of
Due Process
Picture of JALLEN
posted Hide Post
If you have any kind of compensation in any form, even the President’s lawyers paying someone not to talk, you may have a licensing problem, depending on the state, or even be committing a crime without proper credentials.




Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.

When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson

"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown
 
Posts: 48369 | Location: Texas hill country | Registered: July 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of bigdeal
posted Hide Post
I'm always armed when at church. That said, I prefer to keep that relationship confidential and private.


-----------------------------
Guns are awesome because they shoot solid lead freedom. Every man should have several guns. And several dogs, because a man with a cat is a woman. Kurt Schlichter
 
Posts: 33845 | Location: Orlando, FL | Registered: April 30, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Do---or do not.
There is no try.
posted Hide Post
What state are you in? Some, like Texas, have laws that allow churches to set up security without the usual licensing issues.
 
Posts: 4493 | Registered: January 01, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jcsabolt2:
quote:
Originally posted by YellowJacket:
Do you have any training?


I have my CCW and have taken an advanced handgun combat course about 10 years ago.

Our church actually has a pretty robust security plan that has been reviewed by local law enforcement and have some LEOs on the security team. That's about the extent of what I know right now.


The first thing you should do is get your state's security guard license. I'm not sure in your state, but here in Florida there is a short course and you get licensed. If things go South this is the first thing the state is going to look for.

Personally, I wouldn't touch it for liability reasons. The church would have to carry liability insurance for me, for me to even remotely consider doing that. Your Church is probably better off (for liability reasons) for hiring an off duty police officer to cover masses.

My friend is a full time security guard for a very large church, but he is not armed.
 
Posts: 21335 | Registered: June 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The loudest one in the room is the weakest one in the room
Picture of Rigby470
posted Hide Post
I'm a pastor and we are forming our church security team. Our insurance company will cover our church security team if a shooting occurs and it is reasonably determined the person was acting with the best interest of protecting the congregation. One thing our insurance company asked us to do though is to put in writing the names of the members of our church security team. We could add whoever we wanted, but the names on the list would be the ones covered by our church's liability policy.

Check with your church's insurance company to see if they provide any kind of liability coverage for security team members.

And if I were you, I would get as much certification as I possibly could. Anything you can show will help you if the worst happens.


========================

NRA Basic Pistol Instructor
NRA Home Firearm Safety Instructor
NRA Range Officer
NRA Life Member

Arkansas Concealed Carry Instructor #13-943
 
Posts: 1103 | Location: Arkansas | Registered: March 16, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
. Our insurance company will cover our church security team if a shooting occurs and it is reasonably determined the person was acting with the best interest of protecting the congregation.



geez, does it seem like that is open to all sorts of interpretation, to anyone else?





Safety, Situational Awareness and proficiency.



Neck Ties, Hats and ammo brass, Never ,ever touch'em w/o asking first
 
Posts: 54500 | Location: Henry County , Il | Registered: February 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Official Space Nerd
Picture of Hound Dog
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Ryanp225:
I would make sure it stayed "unofficial". Having a private plan with your fellow church goers is the best idea.


On the contrary, being part of an 'official' team protects you.

My church has an organized team that trains together, has the full support of the church leadership, and has its own lawyer. This way, if there is a shooting, you are covered under the protective umbrella of "The Church." Any lawsuits *should* (I'm not a lawyer) be directed at the corporate church entity, not the individuals.

Of course, every state has its own laws and interpretations. I would at least check to see if the team has a lawyer to represent it.


And our security team isn't limited to just shootings. I never carried a firearm as part of my team (I never worked up to that level). I did, however, have the legal authority of the church, which is the property owner. Say, some moron is acting hostile and/or disruptive. I could order him to leave. If he refused, our on-site police could then arrest him for trespassing. Can't do that if you are not sanctioned and appointed by the church. This was a very comforting concept to me, and it also covered me from any lawsuits, as long as I wasn't blatantly criminally negligent (choking out a 5-yr old for stealing a dollar from the offering, for example Smile ).



Fear God and Dread Nought
Admiral of the Fleet Sir Jacky Fisher
 
Posts: 21821 | Location: Hobbiton, The Shire, Middle Earth | Registered: September 27, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I would not touch that with "someone else's ten foot pole".I have always been armed at church, but you are just asking for trouble if somethi8ng bad goes down. I've got too much net worth to jeopardize it like that.



"If you think everything's going to be alright, you don't understand the problem!"- Gutpile Charlie
"A man's got to know his limitations" - Harry Callahan

 
Posts: 9249 | Location: Indian Territory, USA | Registered: March 23, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Just because you can,
doesn't mean you should
posted Hide Post
Not without a really good policy that would cover an intentional shooting and I'm not sure that exists.
I would just go as a good concealed carry parishioner. Maybe the church should just post a sign that concealed carry is allowed in that church and let a potential evil doer guess who and how many.
The actual risk isn't all that great.

https://psmag.com/news/church-...ing-much-more-common


___________________________
Avoid buying ChiCom/CCP products whenever possible.
 
Posts: 9456 | Location: NE GA | Registered: August 22, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
אַרְיֵה
Picture of V-Tail
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jimmy123x:
The first thing you should do is get your state's security guard license. I'm not sure in your state, but here in Florida there is a short course and you get licensed.
"Short course and you get licensed?"

Are you aware that there is a big difference, in training, testing, licensing (and license renewal), between a Florida D license (unarmed security guard) and a Florida G license (armed security guard)?



הרחפת שלי מלאה בצלופחים
 
Posts: 30544 | Location: Central Florida, Orlando area | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
from what you have posted you are not a "trained" security person. All you will be doing is adding a shit load of personal liability against you, the church and your estate.

But lets look at this from a different stand point, would you volunteer as your church's trained emergency medical response team because you have an awesome first aid kit? (assuming you are not a working EMT)

Off-duty LEO's are ridiculously cheap for the hour or 4 hours you would use them.
 
Posts: 2044 | Registered: September 19, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by V-Tail:
quote:
Originally posted by jimmy123x:
The first thing you should do is get your state's security guard license. I'm not sure in your state, but here in Florida there is a short course and you get licensed.
"Short course and you get licensed?"

Are you aware that there is a big difference, in training, testing, licensing (and license renewal), between a Florida D license (unarmed security guard) and a Florida G license (armed security guard)?


If you really want to know about security guard licenses in Florida, and what is required to obtain a Florida Class G security license, it's all documented on the freshfromflorida.com website. Do a little digging there and find the actual facts.

Do you pick apart every single post I make?

It is 28 hours total of course and training to get a Class G license in Florida. That is 3 1/2 8 hour days of training. To me an 3.5 day course is a short course.


"In most cases, a security guard who will carry firearms will need to complete a 28 hour course to earn his or her Class G license. The course will be taught by a professional who holds a Class K firearm instructor license.
The course will teach a state-mandated curriculum (http://www.freshfromflorida.com/Divisions-Offices/Licensing/Private-Investigation/Private-Investigation-and-Firearms/G-License-Classroom-and-Range-Requirements). Legal aspects of use will comprise 12 hours. Safety and mechanics will comprise another 11 hours; this portion will culminate in a written test. Up to eight hours will be credited for firearms qualification; this portion will include practical exercises and qualifying rounds.
Some individuals will be exempted from taking the mandated 28-hour course based on training they received as law enforcement officers or correctional offers. Those who qualify for firearm instructor licenses can also be exempted.
License holders will need to requalify each year.
The armed security officer will be qualified for a particular type of firearm (http://www.freshfromflorida.com/Divisions-Offices/Licensing/Private-Security-and-Firearms).

An applicant for a Class “G” license must submit proof of having completed an initial course of instruction that includes 28 hours of classroom and range training pertaining to the use of firearms in connection with duties regulated under Chapter 493, Florida Statutes (F.S.).

https://www.freshfromflorida.c...License-Requirements"
 
Posts: 21335 | Registered: June 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Security Sage
Picture of striker1
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jimmy123x:
quote:
Originally posted by jcsabolt2:
quote:
Originally posted by YellowJacket:
Do you have any training?


I have my CCW and have taken an advanced handgun combat course about 10 years ago.

Our church actually has a pretty robust security plan that has been reviewed by local law enforcement and have some LEOs on the security team. That's about the extent of what I know right now.


The first thing you should do is get your state's security guard license.


Why? A better option would be to first find out what the laws in your State have to say about the matter, and contact the attorney for the church.

quote:

I'm not sure in your state, but here in Florida there is a short course and you get licensed. If things go South this is the first thing the state is going to look for.


On what are you basing the second part of your comment?


quote:
Personally, I wouldn't touch it for liability reasons. The church would have to carry liability insurance for me, for me to even remotely consider doing that. Your Church is probably better off (for liability reasons) for hiring an off duty police officer to cover masses.

My friend is a full time security guard for a very large church, but he is not armed.


Once again, with the “I have a friend/customer/etc”!

Have you personally looked into this? Have you attended even a single meeting about church security?



RB

Cancer fighter (Non-Hodgkins Lymphoma) since 2009, now fighting Diffuse Large B-Cell Lymphoma.


 
Posts: 7133 | Location: Michiana | Registered: March 01, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Let's be careful
out there
posted Hide Post
The best and safest thing to do is hire a couple of off-duty cops for your church services. In any event, make damned sure THE CHURCH carries insurance coverage for any security team.
 
Posts: 7333 | Location: NW OHIO | Registered: May 29, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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