quote:

Originally posted by thunderson:
I suppose my real question is about standards of evidence regarding signing of warrants. From my very distant perspective it would appear that this Judge did not apply standards that even remotely approached the level applied by a local magistrate concerning much more trivial matters.

That is hard to say. The procedures, limited jurisdiction, one side only, no opposition, and inevitable secrecy, make it hard to know.

I posted the link the other day to the FISC site where you can find some discussion of these issues.

For one thing, it reveals that when an application is received, court personnel, law clerks, intel trained specialists, review it very closely to be sure it meets the standards. If not, they point out where further information is necessary, or details amended, etc, long before a judge sees it. The fact that 99+% are approved is misleading, because not very many are made, those really inappropriate are going to be rejected at the Director and/or AG level, and those that survive that review can be amended or supplemented so that by the time a judge sees it, it is virtually certain to meet the standards. They appear to be particularly focused on 4th Amendment concerns.

Scary thought, if the FBI thought Carter Page was a Russian spy, yet seemingly failed to inform the President elect.

quote:

Originally posted by sdy:
My head is still spinning that perhaps the FBI claimed Carter Page was a Russian agent.

(I still feel uncomfortable w that as a "fact")

Think how important this would be (not that he is, but that the FBI claimed he was)

1. We don't have the slightest indication that the FBI told candidate Donald Trump in Sept/Oct 2016 that Page was a suspected Russian agent

2. We don't have the slightest indication that Comey told President Trump after the election that Carter Page was a suspected Russian agent.

3. An ugly comment for sure, but one of the DC FISC judges was an Obama appointee. I don't have the slightest confidence in an Obama appointee being honest or fair (part of the obama legacy)

Maybe this will turn out to be nothing, but that DEM comment "DoJ and FBI had good reason to suspect Carter Page of being a Russian agent" is adding credibility.

Hard not to wonder about the classification issue of such a DEM comment. Think on that.

After spending a good part of the afternoon reading the transcript of Page’s interview eith the HPSCI, I have to wonder if “Intelligence” is the right word. My take is that if Moscow had to rely on this guy to be a spy, we may be safer than we think. Maybe Page’s conduct was part of a ruse or something.

quote:

Maybe this will turn out to be nothing, but that DEM comment "DoJ and FBI had good reason to suspect Carter Page of being a Russian agent" is adding credibility.

Hard not to wonder about the classification issue of such a DEM comment. Think on that.

This and what Jallen posted about standards is a bit puzzling is it not? Certainly they had more than than the dossier, yahoo, and "he owns a nesting doll". The released memo statement that absent the dossier, there wouldn't be a warrant seems to indicate that they had little else.

One thing is sure. If James "is that all you got" Comey tells you it's raining you better wear galoshes AND sunscreen.

quote:

Maybe Page’s conduct was part of a ruse or something

That thought occurred to me also.

But I will be very surprised if that turns out to be true. very surprised.

edit: JALLEN and I both read the Carter Page testimony. It is astonishing that a Navy officer, PhD and international businessman has such a confusing manner of verbal communication. Borders on total absence of logic at times. I struggled to keep reading his words. He kept ping ponging from topic to topic w abrupt short bursts.


What is much more likely ? That the FBI filed the FISA warrant that they thought he was a spy. They get the warrant.

I think that now gets them access to people who communicated w Page. I think that can be communications retroactive in time. It opens the door to more surveillance on others.

These people never dreamed this stuff would see the light of day. They are fighting like hell to keep it from congress.

I have watched interviews w Carter Page. I think he was an unsuccessful guy who was trying to drum up business. Did he use the fact that he was "on the Trump team" ? I would expect he did.

He was a volunteer, unpaid. Very similar to wannabe Papadopolous.

Would the Russians try to exploit someone like this ? oh yes. Is there any indication they were successful ? Not that I have seen.


The critical question is above: If the FBI truly thought Page was a Russian agent, why didn't they tell Donald Trump?

This really is a critical issue. I am surprised Nunes didn't hammer this harder. He did keep saying "this was not a 702 issue". Maybe in all the action, Nunes didn't realize how important this is.

quote:

The critical question is above: If the FBI truly thought Page was a Russian agent, why didn't they tell Donald Trump?

I've thought about this a bit.

1)Telling Trump would tip their hand even more. I am NOT convinced that Page was the true target. Six degrees to Trump.

2)Not telling Trump allowed them to proceed business as usual and bury this stuff. We little people have no concept of this level of arrogance. The more people the FBI and DOJ can leave in place the higher chance the next coup won't fail.

quote:

Originally posted by sdy:

quote:

Maybe Page’s conduct was part of a ruse or something

That thought occurred to me also.

But I will be very surprised if that turns out to be true. very surprised.

edit: JALLEN and I both read the Carter Page testimony. It is astonishing that a Navy officer, PhD and international businessman has such a confusing manner of verbal communication. Borders on total absence of logic at times. I struggled to keep reading his words. He kept ping ponging from topic to topic w abrupt short bursts.


What is much more likely ? That the FBI filed the FISA warrant that they thought he was a spy. They get the warrant.

I think that now gets them access to people who communicated w Page. I think that can be communications retroactive in time. It opens the door to more surveillance on others.

These people never dreamed this stuff would see the light of day. They are fighting like hell to keep it from congress.

I have watched interviews w Carter Page. I think he was an unsuccessful guy who was trying to drum up business. Did he use the fact that he was "on the Trump team" ? I would expect he did.

He was a volunteer, unpaid. Very similar to wannabe Papadopolous.

Would the Russians try to exploit someone like this ? oh yes. Is there any indication they were successful ? Not that I have seen.

Page reminds me of the operators one encounters in semi big time real estate. These fellows are like the pilot fish that swarm around a shark or whale angling to feed on the droppings and leftovers, or parasites. They hope to find a deal, and negotiate a piece of the action somehow. They have little or no capital of their own, and consequently can rarely do a deal, but hope to attract big capital if they can find a deal that appears adequately lucrative. Real players put up with them, court them even, because they sometimes have great scuttlebutt, and even a lucrative deal they need help with now and then.

So what is the FISA court judge that signed the warrants thinking right now?

Could his or her name come out at some point?

quote:

Originally posted by 220-9er:
So what is the FISA court judge that signed the warrants thinking right now?

Could his or her name come out at some point?

I asked the same question and was told it's U.S. District Court Judge Rudolph Contreras.

Warning: Some bad language.

quote:

Originally posted by SIG228:

quote:

Originally posted by 220-9er:
So what is the FISA court judge that signed the warrants thinking right now?

Could his or her name come out at some point?

I asked the same question and was told it's U.S. District Court Judge Rudolph Contreras.

Why U.S. District Court Judge Rudolph Contreras Recused Himself from Mike Flynn Case

quote:

The greatest irony of this whole mess is that Clinton did exactly what Mueller is investigating President Trump for.

Hillary Clinton colluded with the Russians to interfere with the 2016 election of candidate Trump, and to attempt a coup to impeach President Trump.

Clinton thru various intermediaries paid for the dossier. The dossier is (supposedly) sourced by Russians including one currently in the Kremlin.

The people she paid used the wildly unverified dossier to leak to news media as if it were an intelligence document from a western country.

Those news reports were used as part of the FISA warrant to spy on Carter Page.

Top level FBI and DoJ personnel worked to trigger a "special counsel" (Mueller) to investigate President Trump on a wide open scope of "anything they can find".

The only reason this absurd situation exists is because we have a mainstream media that is acting completely part of the conspiracy and enabling the conspiracy.

Alleluia!

source documents. You always go to the source documents

A lot has been written that Carter Page was identified as a Russian agent in 2013. Actually the Russians tried to recruit him, and the FBI told him that.

Here is the court case against Podobnyy

https://www.documentcloud.org/...t-2.html#document/p1

Carter Page has publicly said he is "male-1"

VP and IS are the 2 Russians charged







Carter Page was never indicted. Notice the Russians never told Page they were connected to Russian govt.

So that is how Page was on the FBI radar from 2013.

quote:

Originally posted by BamaJeepster:

That's because, since it's inception, the FISA court is nothing more than a rubber stamp. It's a sham, just going thru the motions.

I question the entire FISA Court's constitutionality.

"Secret court?" Really?

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither. He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security." ~ Benjamin Franklin

quote:

The greatest irony of this whole mess is that Clinton did exactly what Mueller is investigating President Trump for.

^^^ That is exactly right, yet I have not heard anyone on television news put it so succinctly. Am I wrong about that?

It is a well worn tactic of the left to accuse an enemy of exactly what they themselves are doing, especially totalitarian communist regimes.

quote:

Originally posted by BamaJeepster:

quote:

Originally posted by thunderson:
I suppose my real question is about standards of evidence regarding signing of warrants. From my very distant perspective it would appear that this Judge did not apply standards that even remotely approached the level applied by a local magistrate concerning much more trivial matters.

That's because, since it's inception, the FISA court is nothing more than a rubber stamp. It's a sham, just going thru the motions.
< snip >

And of note, in June 2016, the FISC REJECTED the first attempt to get a FISA warrant. So that makes 13 known rejections.

I was just flipping through the channels this morning by looking at the show info in the on screen program guide.
CNN: {snip} ... the role of the Pro-Trump Media in the release of the Nunes memo ... Could not control my laughter.

I was just flipping through the channels this morning by looking at the show info in the on screen program guide.
CNN: {snip} ... the role of the Pro-Trump Media in the release of the Nunes memo ...
Could not control my laughter.

In a rare survey of the cable channels just now, I caught an evaluation of the Intel Committee, rules, past, release of information, etc by Jonathan Turley on CNN. Surprise!

Turley is often seen on Fox with level headed, calm and expert analysis of legal issues. Seeing him on CNN with the other guys and excelling himself was impressive.

Have been reading FISC law. Have a better understanding of 702, 703, 704.

Bottom line (within the limits of my nonexpert knowledge): the FBI could not have got the 4 FISA warrants on Carter Page without saying he was an agent of a foreign power

(if that turns out to be wrong, I will come back and use strikethrough to correct)

This falls in line w the posted "Charge and Response" list. Nunes says the dossier formed a substantial and essential part of the secret court application. That implies it was the dossier that supported the foreign agent claim


There could always be other things that have not been disclosed, but this is looking like a really ugly picture.

Comey's statement "That's it ?" may be quite an understatement.

*************

adding: after watching a bit of cable news, it really struck me that all these "experts" commenting on this issue, really don't know much at all