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NY Buisness Owner, Stands up to Unconstitutional Lockdown Login/Join 
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Quarantining the sick, is good governance.
Quarantining the healthy, is tyranny.


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Off finding Galt's Gulch
 
Posts: 607 | Registered: March 21, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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quote:
Originally posted by konata88:
Is perhaps the debate on what the criteria is to justify a public health measure.


If it were, that I would agree with.

Another issue, and which was mentioned in the article I linked, is whether other legal principles are violated by the orders and their enforcement, such as preferential treatment being extended to certain entities based on political or other discriminatory and improper criteria. One might, for example, argue that the “equal protection” clause of the Fourteenth Amendment should apply to some of how the orders are directed and enforced. Nobody, however, seemed impressed by the equal protection of the laws argument years ago when I wrote to the mayor of Denver and pointed out that if anyone was given a concealed carry permit, the privilege shouldn’t be limited to certain individuals. I believe there are countless other examples that illustrate that the 14th doesn’t really have as much teeth as we might want, and they certainly illustrate that LEOs aren’t suddenly going to start refusing to enforce a law or executive order because their interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment or any of the rest of the Constitution is different than the legislatures’ or the courts’.

And therefore my question is if there is something in the general concept of a public health order that violates the Constitution on its face. That’s what some evidently believe, and I’m curious what they can point to that supports their belief. Although I’m not an attorney, I have nevertheless studied constitutional law on and off for 50+ years, and I’m always eager to learn about such things.




“The most common reaction to a life-or-death situation is to do nothing.”
— Amanda Ripley, The Unthinkable: who survives when disaster strikes and why (New York: Three Rivers Press, 2008)
 
Posts: 42925 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Be not wise in
thine own eyes
Picture of kimber1911
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LEO’s are in a tough position.

Two weeks ago I had an LEO tell me he could not hold the American flag as someone could take a photo and it would show them choosing a side. Also I could not prop the flag up against the fence around the Governor’s mansion. I was in a bit of a pickle and did not want to lay the flag on the ground.

This officer was not Anti-Constitutional nor unpatriotic.
He in fact had an American Flag face mask on.

Let’s not turn this into LEO bashing, just encouragement to stand strong.



"This American carnage stops right here and stops right now.”
Donald Trump (POTUS) Jan. 20th 2017

"ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ!" King Leonidas of Sparta
 
Posts: 3813 | Location: Charlotte Area | Registered: December 05, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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It's not unconstitutional until a competent court of record has heard arguments for and against a law and had a chance to evaluate witnesses and evidence.
 
Posts: 163 | Registered: June 11, 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Conservative Behind
Enemy Lines
Picture of synthplayer
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quote:
Originally posted by kidcop:
It's not unconstitutional until a competent court of record has heard arguments for and against a law and had a chance to evaluate witnesses and evidence.


If there were propositions in local elections for/against lock-downs, how would the people vote? I reside in the Bay Area - I bet the majority here would vote FOR the lock-downs. But, other than locales like mine - where people are thoroughly indoctrinated by the Left - I don't think many locales would vote for them.



I found what you said riveting.
 
Posts: 10123 | Location: SF Bay Area | Registered: June 06, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by synthplayer:
quote:
Originally posted by kidcop:
It's not unconstitutional until a competent court of record has heard arguments for and against a law and had a chance to evaluate witnesses and evidence.


If there were propositions in local elections for/against lock-downs, how would the people vote? I reside in the Bay Area - I bet the majority here would vote FOR the lock-downs. But, other than locales like mine - where people are thoroughly indoctrinated by the Left - I don't think many locales would vote for them.


Top of mind these days -- a majority does not make it right.




"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - B.Franklin
"Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it." L.Tolstoy
 
Posts: 8722 | Location: In the gilded cage | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by sooma:
Quarantining the sick, is good governance.
Quarantining the healthy, is tyranny.


We have a winner here. Why is EVERYONE restricted as if we're *Typhoid Mary???

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon
 
Posts: 14691 | Location: Eastern Iowa | Registered: May 21, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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19Paul says it all, CPD Sig
 
Posts: 5270 | Registered: August 18, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Sigmund:
quote:
Originally posted by sooma:
Quarantining the sick, is good governance.
Quarantining the healthy, is tyranny.


We have a winner here. Why is EVERYONE restricted as if we're *Typhoid Mary???

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon


But this article, but this "expert", but what about grandma, but what about my cousin who got it, but what about xyz.

The problem of being at the top of Maslow's hierarchy is that we are so far removed from what a real crisis looks like. Globally speaking, C-19 isn't the crisis, Americans not following the dictates of our betters is the crisis.


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Posts: 607 | Registered: March 21, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Move Up or
Move Over
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quote:
Originally posted by sooma:

The problem of being at the top of Maslow's hierarchy is that we are so far removed from what a real crisis looks like. Globally speaking, C-19 isn't the crisis, Americans not following the dictates of our betters is the crisis.


I'm curious if that is worded as you intended. Did you mean the the crisis is Americans following the dictates of our betters?

The way I'm reading it, the addition of the word "not" indicates you think we should shut up and obey...

thanks
 
Posts: 4879 | Location: middle Tennessee | Registered: October 28, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Eye on the
Silver Lining
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Cpd sig: thank you.

This is so fucking surreal - watching small businesses crash around us and knowing we could very well be next. Shutting schools down altogether. Limiting people’s ability to choose for themselves..just surreal.
I can’t even describe how much anger I’m trying to contain on a daily basis.
And now kids aren’t even supposed to play together.


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Posts: 4222 | Registered: October 24, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by 357fuzz:
quote:
Originally posted by Voshterkoff:
That cross section arrested one of our members for going to a gym, but stand down at blm riots. I suspect it’s highly dependent on location, but I doubt city cops are on our side.


Did you just not read CPD Sig’s post? C=Chicago. That is a city. A big city. So yes, there are city cops that don’t believe in this crap either. Great job painting all city LEO’s with that big anti-constitution paint brush Hero!!!



I figured Voshterkoff was not painting with the broad brush, but instead referring to his own town.

I could be wrong.




God bless America.
 
Posts: 10312 | Location: Hokie Nation! | Registered: July 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Raised Hands Surround Us
Three Nails To Protect Us
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CPD is correct and many times there is a huge difference in how State Police will respond and react to these “Governor’s Mandates” than Sheriff Deputies and local officers will.

In most instances State Police Commissioners (or whatever a particular state calls them) are appointed directly by the Governor so things roll down hill in short order. Sadly there will always be officers that will just do as they are told regardless of whether they should.

I believe this was the case in regard to our friend here on Sigforum being arrested for going to the gym.
Pretty sure folks said that officer or whatever he was was some sort of half officer and not a full time officer or the like.

I worked Easter when the Governor ordered the State Police to take down license plates of folks at Church so they could be contacted at home and be told to quarantine.

I had lunch with my supervisor just after the announcement and told him exactly what I would not be doing and he said none of us would be doing that.

Guess who got dispatched to an Easter service? Guess how many plates were written down? Guess who stayed and participated in their service?


This go round our Governor has said no more than 2 households can gather together totaling no more than 8 people.
Guess who is working Thanksgiving?? Hope I get some friendly folks that invite me in for some delicious food.
I do believe I am going to buy a few Pumpkin Pies that I will give to the folks that have neighbors who call on them for having a couple cars in the driveway.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Black92LX,


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Or you can start over.
Regrets, no matter what you goin’ through. Jesus, He gave it all to save you. He carried the cross on His shoulders. So you can start over.
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Posts: 22007 | Registered: September 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Bolt Thrower
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CP, Jones, and Black all sound like excellent officers, who use their brains, hearts, and are true Americans. I wish the two cops in the video were of the same caliber. Those “just doing their job” need a history lesson.
 
Posts: 8900 | Location: Woodinville, WA | Registered: March 30, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by mark_a:
The way I'm reading it, the addition of the word "not" indicates you think we should shut up and obey...

thanks


Sorry, for the confusion, I'm saying for the Globalists (like the UN,China,etc), Americans refusing to conform is the crisis. Apparently, they do not understand the American spirit. We will never conform.


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Posts: 607 | Registered: March 21, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
delicately calloused
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I think we are seeing what can be expected of human nature. There are those police officers who will do as they're told by political tyrants and those who will not. An oppressed public will apply a broad definition to it's imminent threat; which is to say, complaints and protests to those who will oppress will be defined as all police since the threat by some is so great and potentially deadly.

I think if things go even further South from here, righteous police officers who absolutely will not oppress for a paycheck, will have to completely disconnect from the agency to preserve their integrity re: constitutional principles. It's a terrible thing to have to make such a decision which is why resistance to political tyrants by the police must be done now and with gusto before precedents are established. Already we see LE agencies refusing to enforce these unconstitutional mandates.

I am encouraged by what I see locally, in other States and on this board from our righteous law enforcement officers. They are standing for the principles of liberty. To them I say my family and I are eternally grateful. You are the champions of freedom. As a public infused with a drive to live by the law and thirsty for peace, we are essentially helpless to resist nascent oppression. By the time we the public are forced to defend liberty in the streets, tyranny would have had time and opportunity to develop into an overwhelming threat. We need you to resist nascent oppression.



You’re a lying dog-faced pony soldier
 
Posts: 26529 | Location: Highland, Ut. | Registered: May 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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He in fact had an American Flag face mask on.


He couldn't touch the American Flag but he can wear it on his face? Roll Eyes
 
Posts: 2948 | Registered: April 20, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by kidcop:
It's not unconstitutional until a competent court of record has heard arguments for and against a law and had a chance to evaluate witnesses and evidence.


Sounds like you've chosen to enforce whatever you're told.

Okay then.
 
Posts: 436 | Location: Alaska | Registered: September 29, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
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quote:
Originally posted by vthoky:
quote:
Originally posted by 357fuzz:
quote:
Originally posted by Voshterkoff:
That cross section arrested one of our members for going to a gym, but stand down at blm riots. I suspect it’s highly dependent on location, but I doubt city cops are on our side.


Did you just not read CPD Sig’s post? C=Chicago. That is a city. A big city. So yes, there are city cops that don’t believe in this crap either. Great job painting all city LEO’s with that big anti-constitution paint brush Hero!!!



I figured Voshterkoff was not painting with the broad brush, but instead referring to his own town.

I could be wrong.


I won’t speak for him, nor will I tell you guys what to think, but I think Voster was replying to a since deleted post. I posted it, and deleted it a couple of minutes later. Actually twice.

I have little time for any of mrgunsgear anti-cop bullshit. A short trip down memory lane a few months ago he called for the murder of cops, found out he was duped, and the issued a non-apology apology.

At the end of the day, local police is a cross section of the society it serves. If you are in a liberal area, you can expect that out of your police. Holding all police responsible for something that goes on 1000 miles away is as ridiculous as holding all gun owners responsible for the idiots of one gun man.

I think that’s what he was replying to. I just want to put a little perspective to it.

Some of us won’t quit. Make them fire you. At that point, it won’t matter.




www.opspectraining.com

"It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it works out for them"



 
Posts: 34656 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sigmund:
quote:
Originally posted by sooma:
Quarantining the sick, is good governance.
Quarantining the healthy, is tyranny.


We have a winner here. Why is EVERYONE restricted as if we're *Typhoid Mary???

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon


Very succinct, but very correct.

In the history of public health in the US, precedents exist for compulsory vaccination of public school children, and quarantining of the sick. To my knowledge we have never:

- Placed restrictions on healthy people who do not have any symptoms.
- Tested people who do not have symptoms for purpose of quarantine.
- Let bureaucrats decide which businesses are essential and which are not.
- Closed schools despite no significant evidence of child-to-child, child-to-teacher, or child-to-parent transmission.
- Closed small businesses but allowed large businesses to remain open without any logical basis or data establishing the risk level.
- Closed outdoor parks and beaches.
- Closed places of worship.

There is a legistlated basis for vaccination and quarantine. Everything else that is "new" for COVID19 that has not been enacted into law by the state legislatures is overreach by the state executive branches.

Yes, during states of emergency, executives are given broad powers. Depending on existing legislation that establishes the Governor's authority during a state of emergency, some of these things may be "legal", but I am not aware if any of these emergency power laws have been subject to constitutional review. If this is the first time they have been activated, people might now have legal standing to challenge them.

President Trump could have done a hell of a lot during the national state of emergency, such as: enacting martial law, suspending various constitutional protections, activating military for domestic deployment, and more. He chose not to.
 
Posts: 2361 | Location: Indiana | Registered: December 28, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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