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How does one teach (or convince) a boss to be a leader? Login/Join 
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Edmond:
Boss says go and leader says follow me.



pretty much that is what it boils down to

I was in the 82nd ABN. Company Commanders and Battalion Commanders were almost always manifested to be the first ones to jump out the aircraft door. Lead from the front.

Have been in corporate America for a long time. Don't see much of that type of leadership.

----------------------------------


Proverbs 27:17 - As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
 
Posts: 8028 | Location: Florida | Registered: September 20, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Prefontaine
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I had a Pat up until this year. I went three levels up and told them (all 3 management layers) that either move me (I save my company 7 figures a year and the only SME in my field in 25k employees) or I'll look for another job as I refuse to put up with hostile work environment and micromanagement when I can run circles around my boss like Usain Bolt around a toddler. The behavior clearly comes from insecurity and lack of experience (and knowledge). Thankfully I got moved to another manager. It got petty and sorry to report this is common in corp life.



lex talionis
 
Posts: 10228 | Registered: January 16, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Shaql
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Be a leader for him.

Take his job.





Hedley Lamarr: Wait, wait, wait. I'm unarmed.
Bart: Alright, we'll settle this like men, with our fists.
Hedley Lamarr: Sorry, I just remembered . . . I am armed.
 
Posts: 5964 | Location: Atlanta | Registered: April 23, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I have a very particular
set of skills
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by M-11:
I'll recommend another book (for anyone looking to the management track): "Leaders Eat Last". It explains the biology behind leaders and bosses. It uses both civilian and military examples. My example was my dad. As a minister he was always invited to eat first at the church suppers; but, somehow, he was always talking to one group or person or another and waived others ahead of him into line. He always ate last.


^^This is spot on. I was always of the opinion, the more you moved up in rank, the more you move back in the chow line. Boots on the ground need grub more than the desk-drivers.

$.02 worth.

Boss


A real life Sisyphus...
"It's not the critic who counts..." TR
Exodus 23.2: Do not follow the crowd in doing wrong...
Despite some people's claims to the contrary, 5 lbs. is actually different than 12 lbs.
It's never simple/easy.
 
Posts: 4525 | Location: In the arena... | Registered: December 18, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Eschew Obfuscation
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by apprentice:
You'll have to get rid of him and be more fortunate with his replacement. Rinse and repeat as necessary.
Just being pragmatic and concise. You've been around the sun a few times, so I suspect you already know this deep down.

This. After spending 30+ years as a corporate atty, I got to spend a lot of time (visiting) the C Suite of various companies. Some people are such natural leaders that they aren't really even conscious of it (i.e., they are born leaders); some aren't natural leaders, but work hard at it which earns them respect; and some call themselves leaders but aren't and never will be.

There are even places that try to train leadership and people skills. The first large corporation I worked for would send execs with lousy people skills there to try to transform them. We called it the "charm school". One exec I worked with was brilliant in his field, but treated his people like dirt. He went to charm school not once, but twice. It was a waste of time however; within a couple of months (weeks) he was back to his old ways: belittling people in meetings, screaming obscenities during conf calls, etc.


_____________________________________________________________________

NRA Endowment Life Member; ISRA Member
_____________________________________________________________________

“The Left want to be our shepherds. But that requires us to be sheep.” ― Thomas Sowell
 
Posts: 4926 | Location: Chicago, IL | Registered: December 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Drill Here, Drill Now
Picture of tatortodd
posted Hide Post
As far as the OP's original question - as a peer there is little you can do until someone senior to both you and the dictator approaches you directly or indirectly (e.g. the peer component of a 360 degree feedback survey).
quote:
Originally posted by M-11:
I'll recommend another book (for anyone looking to the management track): "Leaders Eat Last". It explains the biology behind leaders and bosses. It uses both civilian and military examples. My example was my dad. As a minister he was always invited to eat first at the church suppers; but, somehow, he was always talking to one group or person or another and waived others ahead of him into line. He always ate last.
My former pastor (I used to attend a megachurch) wrote a excellent book on leadership. One of the best analogies in it was the window vs the mirror.

When things are going well:
  • leader looks out the window and thinks how awesome his team is doing.
  • manager looks in the mirror and thinks how awesome he/she is doing.

    When things are going poorly:
  • leader looks in the mirror and thinks how he/she is letting his team down and how he/she could change to turn things around.
  • manager looks out the window and thinks how his team is letting him down.



    Ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity

    DISCLAIMER: These are the author's own personal views and do not represent the views of the author's employer.
  •  
    Posts: 19230 | Location: N. Houston, TX | Registered: November 14, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
    Eschew Obfuscation
    posted Hide Post
    quote:
    Originally posted by M-11:
    I'll recommend another book (for anyone looking to the management track): "Leaders Eat Last".

    One exec I worked for didn't eat first or last - it was beneath his dignity to break bread with the peasants who worked for him.

    We had an all-hands staff meeting at an offsite hotel followed by a team building dinner/reception. Our "leader" wasn't at the dinner and people kept asking where he was. Word leaked out that he'd gone to a local restaurant to have dinner with some other folks. He wasn't much of a leader before that evening, but that night really eliminated any respect he did have among our staff.


    _____________________________________________________________________

    NRA Endowment Life Member; ISRA Member
    _____________________________________________________________________

    “The Left want to be our shepherds. But that requires us to be sheep.” ― Thomas Sowell
     
    Posts: 4926 | Location: Chicago, IL | Registered: December 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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    Picture of vthoky
    posted Hide Post
    quote:
    Originally posted by myrottiety:
    GREAT book called "Extreme Ownership".


    Thank you for the recommendation. I’ll probably order it for myself this weekend.

    quote:
    Originally posted by Jeff Yarchin:
    Sometimes the answer is to move on. If you surround yourself with great people and great leaders, success is the result.


    Understood. My anchor is pretty heavy here, I’m reluctant to move. But… I have a great team around me. My department (group of six) is a good bunch, and I have allies in at least three other departments. I’m not unhappy there, except when dealing directly with Pat and Mr. Soon-to-retire. This situation will get better.

    quote:
    Originally posted by Prefontaine:
    hostile work environment


    A phrase I can’t wait to use when responding to Pat.

    quote:
    Originally posted by Shaql:
    Take his job.


    Pat’s is not a job I’d want, but I know someone else in our facility who’d do a heck of a good job with it.

    quote:
    Originally posted by Prefontaine:
    insecurity and lack of experience (and knowledge).


    Correct. Pat is a product of previous “tantrum management.” The thing is, the previous fellow absolutely knew WTH he was doing. He could really blow a gasket sometimes, but 30 minutes later it was as if it had never happened… you could go have lunch or a beer with him. I didn't enjoy the blowups (wasn't directly subject to them, either), but I respected that he didn't hold a grudge.

    quote:
    Originally posted by tatortodd:
    as a peer there is little you can do until someone senior to both you and the dictator approaches you directly or indirectly (e.g. the peer component of a 360 degree feedback survey


    I’ve spoken directly to one at a level higher than mine and Pat’s, and will continue to do so, hoping the message gets through.

    - - - - -
    Mercury: thank you for the quotes. I’ll add those to the collection on my corkboard at work.
    Joel9507: the recruiter thing is a wonderful idea!
    SPWAMike: you nailed it.

    Thank you all for the book recommendations. I’ll plan to read them all.

    Something I didn’t mention before is that I’m presently filling in for my department head, who recently left the company.

    Two particular allies I have are former long-term military, one retired from the Army as a Command Sergeant Major. I rely on them a lot for guidance and advice, particularly as I work toward filling my former leader’s (yes, he was definitely a leader) shoes. Interestingly, doing so will put me at the same hierarchical level as Pat and likely will increase my dealing with Pat. I have some learning to do, so as to make that productive and non-confrontational.

    - - - -
    ETA: Maybe I should make a peace offering? (SF link)
    I keed! I keed! Big Grin

    - - - -
    ETA (again): One of the allies I mentioned above has the Willink book and has offered to lend it to me. Cool




    God bless America.
     
    Posts: 10113 | Location: Hokie Nation! | Registered: July 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
    Bookers Bourbon
    and a good cigar
    Picture of Johnny 3eagles
    posted Hide Post
    Seriously, give him a copy of Army Field Manual 6-22.

    FM 6-22 pdf



    “Fate whispers to the warrior, 'You can not withstand the storm.'
    The warrior whispers back, 'I AM THE STORM."


    NRA ENDOWMENT LIFE MEMBER
     
    Posts: 5234 | Location: Arkansas  | Registered: November 06, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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    posted Hide Post
    Retired after 45years, process engineer, most of them as supervisor, team leader, dept manager. Never saw a bad leader learn and become a really good boss.

    Rarely saw a poor employee, worker, member of team go from poor to great. I did indicate member of team as opposed to a team member.
     
    Posts: 434 | Location: South Texas | Registered: February 27, 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post
    Page late and a dollar short
    posted Hide Post
    Quote:Pat runs on the "management by fear" premise, constantly threatening disciplinary action, even for the smallest of mistakes.

    I referred to it as management by intimidation.

    Last full time job this was the norm, it got worse as time went by. Nine years, I only stayed the last three because of the money (more than others would pay for a similar position) and retirement on the horizon. Three times I was threatened with termination, I said "So do it", he backed off each time, all B.S. reasons. There was a fine line and once it was crossed it was either stand up for myself or allow him to bully me. Others would take it, I would not.

    I was in management for a lot of years, officially from 75-88 and unofficially as I was heading up a satellite location for six years and had a subordinate with me and I never played the boss game. I always felt that we were a team and I never expected anyone to do something if I would not do it myself. Guess that is not a preferred management tool in today's world.

    Sad part, that boss actually was a nice guy when off the clock and off premises.


    -------------------------------------——————
    ————————--Ignorance is a powerful tool if applied at the right time, even, usually, surpassing knowledge(E.J.Potter, A.K.A. The Michigan Madman)
     
    Posts: 6442 | Location: Livingston County Michigan USA | Registered: August 11, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
    and this little pig said:
    posted Hide Post
    Sounds like you're taking Prefontaine's approach and going to the next level.

    Have you tried getting Pat aside and talking to him? He may not be aware of his adversarial management style. If he is and/or won't allow you to talk to him, tell him directly that you will be having conversations with other top management. Use a little "intimidation" on him!

    Next, start documenting every time the jerk disrupts operations, and be specific. i.e. We were doing this and Pat demanded we do it his way. His methods did not improve productivity and his constant monitoring caused us to slow down. Instead of 40 pcs. per hour, we only made 23. This sort of documentation. Also have times and dates. This will allow upper management to check/corroborate the facts.

    When I was a manager, I held weekly production meetings with the team: telling them what products needed to be built and shipped for the week, asking for their input on whether the schedule was feasible or not, and if not, how we could make it feasible. My next check with them was on a Friday to see what needed to be done. Having feedback from the workers was most valuable as they often told me that the lack of sub-assemblies/inventory slowed them down.

    I hope you can turn Pat around if you can explain that you folks are only trying to make him look better!
     
    Posts: 3049 | Registered: February 07, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
    "Member"
    Picture of cas
    posted Hide Post
    One thing about being a leader, you need to have people worth leading.

    I have 28 people under me. About 8 of the appreciated when I was like the examples you give. And MY bosses didn't want me to be that person. So I gave up.


    _____________________________________________________
    Sliced bread, the greatest thing since the 1911.

     
    Posts: 17880 | Location: 18th & Fairfax  | Registered: May 17, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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    Picture of 9mmnut
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    I agree with wxl,you can’t motivate people. I tried. They either have or they don’t. This guy will only change if forced to by management. If upper management isn’t aware of the situation things will probably get worse. Get a group together and approach management. You can’t do it by yourself. No book is going to change him. After being a supervisor for over 30 years I have seen them all. I never had an immediate boss that was bad. Saw some higher up the ladder but they never seemed to stay around long.
     
    Posts: 1129 | Location: Southern ,Mi. | Registered: October 17, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
    Victim of Life's
    Circumstances
    Picture of doublesharp
    posted Hide Post
    Do like political kingmakers do. Set him up in a honeypot trap. Wink


    ________________________
    God spelled backwards is dog
     
    Posts: 3498 | Location: Sunnyside of Louisville | Registered: July 04, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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    Picture of Beancooker
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    I have been thinking about your post and how to reply fir a while. There are a few things that I see. First, as you pointed out, Pat is a micromanager. That is a huge issue. What happens when Pat is gone for a week? The ship sinks.
    I was a Pat at one point. I was promoted to a position, and my leader was a Pat. Rule by the sword and crush the losers who can’t tow the line. I was inexperienced, and had no idea what I was doing.

    I have been fortunate enough to have been through a lot of training, training that set me up to be a better leader, and a better person.

    There is a book, one that if you can leave it for Pat, or mail it to him anonymously, so he can read it, if he would... it’s called The Servant, bu James Hunter. This is a book I read every six months or do. It has served me well, and reminds me to value my employees.
    When I changed my leadership style, there was a huge change at work. People started to do more. People were willing to go above and beyond for the gratitude I would offer. I built a team of 120+ people that would have followed me off of a cliff. I turned a distribution center from having over 128% annual turnover to less than 20% annual turnover. The key to it all was respect and appreciation.

    People don’t quit their job, they quit their boss. This is a very true statement 90% of the time.

    I hate to say it, but you cannot change a person into becoming a leader if they don’t want to change.

    Vthoky, If you would like a copy of The Servant, I’ll be happy to send you one. Email me your address.




    quote:
    Balzé Halzé:
    now I see that you're about as bright as a black hole, and twice as dense. Good lord.
    The “lol” thread
     
    Posts: 2031 | Location: Staring down at you with disdain, from the spooky mountaintop castle.  | Registered: November 20, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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    Picture of vthoky
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    Good morning, all, and thank you for the continued advice.

    I thank you again for the book recommendations -- I have a ton of reading to do now.

    In the last day's worth of thinking about the situation (Pat, my potential promotion, and the entirety of it all), I've realized a few things.

    1. Pat will likely continue to be Pat. Though we will still work to make Pat more pleasant, it will be my job to insulate my team from Pat's wrath (as our former department head did for us). It'll suck having to take the brunt of Pat's, um, personality, but I can use that as an example for my team of how not to be. I have to put enough effort into being a good influence that it overcomes Pat's crummy management style.
    2. I have to create conditions that let my team succeed in spite of Pat.
    3. I have to limit my griping about Pat in the presence of my team.
    4. In my current place in the hierarchy, and in my potential next one, my team and I don't report to Pat. We have to work together and get along, but [in my five-year-old voice] "Pat's not the boss of us."

    - - - - -

    Johnny3: thank you for the PDF. I'm looking forward to reading that myself.

    Shovelhead: you nailed it with "management by intimidation." That's exactly it, sir. I wish I could share the email Pat sent on Thursday; it's a prime example.

    Odin: I'd like to have a one-on-one talk with Pat, and in years past we got along well enough that I could have done that. Times have changed with Pat in "the big chair," and that's a no-go. Pat can barely say "good morning" to me these days. I can, however, document the difficulties and carry that info up the chain as necessary.

    Cas: I do have a good team in my department. We're shorthanded, and we're going to lose one to retirement in about a month. That's going to hurt the entire organization, particularly because this one is THE in-house subject matter expert (SME). I've another in my group who's young, bright, and energetic -- I've already told Number One in the house that I want two more of him, and I need to do all I can to make our place a place he wants to be.

    Beancooker: I appreciate the book lend; I'll email you shortly.

    - - - - -

    Looking back a little, it seems I've drifted my own thread, from what to do about Pat to what I need to do for myself and my team. I think now I have two projects: step up properly for my team and for the organization, and continue to find ways to positively influence Pat's behavior.




    God bless America.
     
    Posts: 10113 | Location: Hokie Nation! | Registered: July 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
    On the DL
    Picture of V-Tail
    posted Hide Post
    quote:
    Originally posted by CoolRich59:

    The first large corporation I worked for would send execs with lousy people skills there to try to transform them. We called it the "charm school".
    I worked for a really big company. Every employee who was promoted to a supervisory position was sent to charm school before assuming the new assignment.
     
    Posts: 23777 | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
    Not One of
    the Cool Kids
    Picture of enidpd804
    posted Hide Post
    Management is a science. Leadership is an art. Some people are not artists.

    It all starts with this: https://www.policeone.com/chie...ip-jKiVZ5S7enxq0f4Y/

    I bought all five of our captains a hardcover copy of Extreme Ownership as referenced above. A few of them have actually read it. I've had a conversation with our chief about the importance of trust and the fact that he doesn't have it from the troops. I'm slowly working my way into the *how* part of that conversation.
     
    Posts: 3810 | Location: OK | Registered: August 15, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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    Picture of vthoky
    posted Hide Post
    Thank you for the article link, enidpd.


    quote:
    from enidpd's article:
    empathy and vision


    I believe Pat has a vision (in my opinion it has as much to do with Pat's personal success as with that of the organization), but I'm thinking there's a serious lack of empathy. The "Pat's way or the highway" and "management by intimidation" things serve as evidence.




    God bless America.
     
    Posts: 10113 | Location: Hokie Nation! | Registered: July 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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