End of life care is expensive. The statistics are available that support that. I do not think this is legislation promoted by insurance companies. The government foots a great deal of this bill for end of life care. It is typically THE FAMILY, and not the patient that wants to do everything possible to keep that person alive, despite the minimal or nonexistent chances of recovery. The focus needs to be upon the wants of the patient.

Jesus Arc. I really don't know what to say to you.

I'll just step out now.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:
Of course I'm being compassionate.

It breaks my heart every time I have to do it, but if you don't see the difference between a dog and a human being, well...I guess you need to examine some things.

Sounds like you're calling him stupid, or something.

quote:

Originally posted by ZSMICHAEL:
End of life care is expensive. The statistics are available that support that. I do not think this is legislation promoted by insurance companies. The government foots a great deal of this bill for end of life care. It is typically THE FAMILY, and not the patient that wants to do everything possible to keep that person alive, despite the minimal or nonexistent chances of recovery. The focus needs to be upon the wants of the patient.

The individuals and families that find themselves in these situations, well, I'm not sure any of us can really fully comprehend it until we're directly confronted.

Of the family who have passed, I've already watched too many waste away from cancer. If they had wished to end their suffering early, I think they should be able to make that choice. Having sat bedside next to someone so frail, I feel like it would be at best a deep disrespect to deny them such a wish, and to basically make them finish a race they no longer wish to run.

Of the states where medically assisted suicide is currently legal, and it narrowly failed to pass here in MA, the laws from what I've read, are not exactly "loose" when it comes to the criteria for such an act to take place. I wouldn't expect them to be, to both make sure that someone actually wishes for such a thing, and to limit the potential for fraud/abuse.

Suicide, or the conditions it takes for a person to come to the mindset where they wish to die, are not so simple or easy to understand, because none of us can be inside the mind of another and fully know all of the things they are experiencing to bring them to the wish for death. Particularly with a terminal disease or condition, denying someone does not seem compassionate.

As far as the 17yr old rape victim, I had to look up the article. In her case, I would say it is right that she was denied assisted suicide. Because she could do it herself, and she did. In the cases of an able bodied person who wishes to die, well, it can be awfully hard to stop them.

With an open conversation about suicide, we can save as many people as possible. It's when shame keeps them silent and social pressure means they hide their pain, that they are truly unreachable. If we can talk about it, then maybe they can be given the tools to come back toward life before the load is too heavy to bear.

There should not be a time when you can stroll into a store and say "I'd like a suicide please" and they take you in the back and "help." If you can do it, you're going to need to do it yourself. No, this medically assisted business isn't that.

At the very least, it's not a decision I would make for the rest of society, nor one I'd want society making for me.

Good points. I myself have some directives in place drawn up by an attorney. In addition to DNR and DNI, they include directives addressing pain relief, even if the pain medication may hasten my death. Of course these things need to almost be stapled to your chest to get folks to pay attention to them.

I think its about time

we, as free people, should have the right to determine how we exit this world

and at the end of the day, why is it ever anyone elses business?

I know I said that I'd back out but...

FFS Airsoft. Really? Nice try on trying to create some sort of rift, but count it as a failure.

How about this: Try not to interject yourself when adults are discussing something of importance.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:
Of course I'm being compassionate.

It breaks my heart every time I have to do it, but if you don't see the difference between a dog and a human being, well...I guess you need to examine some things.

Come on Gustofer. That last statement is a cop out when you won’t or can’t address a counterpoint with one of your own. That’s not the best way to sway folks in a debate.

As far as my opinion, anyone here read Johnny Got His Gun? Don’t tell me you’d like to live like that. Is it moral to put a bullet into a man’s brain in such a situation? What if you handed him the gun (and he actually had hands)? I’d have no qualms about it, either way.

I’m not seeing the significant difference in someone offing themselves or someone getting help if they are unable but willing. That seems like a way to project one’s negative opinion on suicide onto others. “You can get your hands dirty, but don’t dirty mine or anyone else’s”. All of that while talking out the other side of your mouth that it’s an ok choice for someone to make for themselves.

As for airsoft guy, well, he’s just being airsoft guy.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:
I know I said that I'd back out but...

FFS Airsoft. Really? Nice try on trying to create some sort of rift, but count it as a failure.

How about this: Try not to interject yourself when adults are discussing something of importance.

I know, fuck me for reading between the lines, right?

^^

http://www.patientsrightscounc...real-jack-kevorkian/


Need some perspective ? Read. This.

I agree with Arc. This is good legislation that I hope will gain some momentum. I've seen a few friends that died a slow, painful death because they were told that is just the way it is. It need not be.

Based on my drunken research, assisted suicide has been legal in Oregon since 1997? So, if there was reason to worry about abuse, there ought to be plenty of cases, since it's been law long enough to buy a handguns (and use that to assist in some suicides). I get the aversion because someone could abuse the law, but that's really a piss poor reason to keep something illegal, because someone might do something wrong. If that's your criteria, then we need to ban guns and knives and booze and lawn gnomes.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:
Of course I'm being compassionate.

It breaks my heart every time I have to do it, but if you don't see the difference between a dog and a human being, well...I guess you need to examine some things.

The more human beings I meet, the more I appreciate dogs.

I’ll confess thinking the last time we had to put an animal down that while it really sucked, it was the humane thing to do and how quaint it was that we couldn’t do the same for humans.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:
FFS Airsoft. Really? Nice try on trying to create some sort of rift, but count it as a failure.

How about this: Try not to interject yourself when adults are discussing something of importance.

Gustofer, you mind your Goddamned manners or you will find yourself on moderated status for a month. Do not mistake my efforts to maintain a balance in this thread as tacit support for your position. That was uncalled for. If you have a valid argument, stick to it, and save the insults.

quote:

Originally posted by airsoft guy:
....and lawn gnomes.

Not the lawn gnomes!!!!

After watching my parents, my in-laws, and a sister die lingering deaths over the course of years, if I develop cancer or some similar horrific condition, I've chosen my path.

And if God wants to punish me for it, I'll call him a sadistic son-of-a-bitch and accept my fate.

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:
http://www.patientsrightscounc...real-jack-kevorkian/

Need some perspective ? Read. This.

My take away from that is that Kevorkian was a kook. What is your perspective? As far as assisted suicide is concerned, he did a great service in furthering it. His additional goals are unlikely to ever come to pass, but these other ideas don't invalidate medically assisted suicide.

quote:

Originally posted by Sig2340:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by airsoft guy:
....and lawn gnomes.[/

Not the lawn gnomes!!!!

After watching my parents, my in-laws, and a sister die lingering deaths over the course of years, if I develop cancer or some similar horrific condition, I've chosen my path.

And if God wants to punish me for it, I'll call him a sadistic son-of-a-bitch and accept my fate.

Well, if I punch my own ticket, or have help punching it and meet God, first I'll happily admit that I was wrong about their existence. Then we'd chat about how I'd got there, and I don't think God would quibble with it. Or all the masturbating. I'm pretty sure a life lived being decent to others as much as possible would overshadow that. I'm fairly certain God isn't Catholic, if there is one.

During the debate for this bill a woman came forward from California to testify against it:

Stephanie Packer is also terminally ill. She suffers from several diseases including lupus and scleroderma.

"Basically, my organs turn to stone,” Packer said. “They just build up scar tissue so they can't, my lungs can't expand and contract."

But she opposes assisted suicide, which she says is not always the peaceful death proponents talk about.

"They don't talk about the people that convulse, or are gasping for air, or start vomiting everywhere, or God forbid the patients that actually wake up afterwards," Packer said.

Packer says her insurance company in California, one of five states with assisted suicide, would not cover her chemotherapy treatments. But she says they did tell her for a $1.20 co-pay, she could get the end of life drugs.

"They won't pay for me to spend time with my kids,” Packer said. “But for a buck, I can kill myself."

https://wgme.com/news/local/ma...th-with-dignity-bill

As long as someone somewhere is a burden to someone else, there will be suicide, and there will also be "assisted" suicide. We used to call that murder. However, a little too much morphine administered to someone who was dying was always a grey area and almost never prosecuted.

There will also be motivation to encourage or "assist" not just in the physical act of pushing the plunger but in encouraging the mental act of surrender. Here... just sign this form.

One of the reasons I was so opposed to Obamacare, and all forms of socialized medicine, is that as we move in that direction the government increasingly has motivation for our death. If you are not productive, you are a burden. Here... just take this pill.

Sure, it's the patient's choice.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:
"Primum non nocere."

There's a reason that that oath has been around for so long.

That article is dated 2017, I wonder what she is doing now? Hopefully she found a better insurance company.

Insurance companies and a pure profit motive, is something that I wish could be legislated. With one major change. No shareholders in healthcare. Which doesn't mean no companies turning a profit, it just means that the same drive for revenue from an Apple or Amazon doesn't belong connected to healthcare. Oops but then we break a lot of financial vehicles.. there must be a balance there somewhere.

As for the government itself killing citizens, getting rid of voters and taxpayers sounds like a losing strategy. Here in America we still have a bulwark against a government who is trying to kill us, but generally no one would put up with the state "purging the unproductive." That is until the pinko reeducation really takes hold.

I'm on the death with dignity side, with a check to ensure that it's not under duress or that someone is trying to hasten an inheritance.

That said if a health care professional or privately funded facility has a morale or religious objection to assisting in a death , they should not be forced to support one.

I would ask that people make sure that their DNRs and living wills are kept current and that people take the time to talk with their families about why they elected to have a DNR while they still can have a lucid conversation.