Sorry, but that's too California/too full of litigious society concerns/too textbook, and patently poor advice in certain scenarios. My weapon is there for the protection of myself and my loved ones, and if that means having it drawn and ready sometimes so be it.

Few ranges will even let one practice from a draw, few shooters in general are or ever will be particularly proficient in drawing and firing with accuracy in the heat of the moment, and certain scenarios warrant the clear advantage of having a weapon at the low ready.

If I have to make my way from the back end of Walmart or Costco to the front exit doors, with an unknown number and location of attackers, and I have to contend with watching out for my loved ones, too, that extra second saved by not drawing is critically important.

And a thousand other as-yet-unforeseen situations. And such things in no way advocate waving one around, playing Jack Bauer or a SWAT wannabe, or a single illusion as to my role, rights, and otherwise. Surviving matters most, and every advantage may matter.

When the shit hits the fan you better believe I'm getting out of the situation alive, whether that means driving a forklift over a badguy or through a wall, smashing them over the head with a TV on display, or anything and everything it takes, including drawing a pistol.

The world is much more chaotic than such overly simplified rules can account for.

Where can you really hunker down in a Walmart? There aren't a lot of places you can put your back up against a wall without being exposed from a few directions.

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Originally posted by Aeteocles:

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Originally posted by arabiancowboy:

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Originally posted by Aeteocles:

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Originally posted by ensigmatic:
If I heard shooting in such a venue: Step 1: Locate wife. Step 2: Retreat to defensible position and draw. Step 3: Wait for uniforms to show.

I was taught to not draw.

1. Don't want to be mistaken for the bad guy. Weapon in hand makes you an immediate threat to all first responders, and no amount of screaming, "It's not me, bro!" is going to convince them otherwise. You have a gun in hand, you are suddenly a priority and you'll end up on the ground with cuffs at some point. More importantly, you are distracting resources from the real threat.

2. Drawing your weapon, with no immediate intent to start shooting, puts you at a tactical disadvantage. There is no way to be sure that you've identified all the bad guys, so drawing your weapon makes you a target There is no way to be sure that you've identified all the bad guys, so drawing your weapon makes you a target. This happened at another Walmart shooting in Vegas where a CCW holder drew his weapon on a bad guy, and then an accomplice came up behind him and put a bullet in his head.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/art...r-victim-5545824.php

3). Keeping your weapon hidden gives you the element of surprise and flexibility to respond to situations as it changes. If you have your gun out, and bad guy sees you, you are basically forced to exchange fire for good or bad. If your gun is hidden, you can time your attack to make optimal effect. If it becomes a hostage situation, you might be able to stash your weapon or keep it hidden until the time is right.


Your strategy should be 1) Locate wife. 2) Retreat to safety, or if safety not available, to a defensible position. 3) Prepare to draw, but keep your gun hidden.

I understand, but disagree. First, to the bolder section above, the shooter came in and killed people randomly. You are no more or less a target in this situation with or without a weapon. He is killing at random. Ergo, I’d argue prudence dictates preparation for immediate contact.

Secondly, I think this kind of nuanced action planning fails to adequently account for the human aspect of processing adrenaline. KISS is the appropriate acronym for most people in most situations. Your idea of staying cool and composed, playing it tactically smart while also positioned strategically for a hostage standoff, etc. reads well and sounds doable but is totally impossible for most people. Including me. I know my limits. In an instance where an assailant is walking through Walmart shooting at random, I think the safest play most CCW could execute is exactly what ensigmatic outlined. Are there disadvantages to drawing? Yes, but they are outweighed by advantages.

Nearly all of your practice with your CCW should be from a draw. It's a CCW, it should stay concealed. If the gun clears your holster, it should be with the intent that the gun will immediately go bang. After it goes bang, move, scan and carefully reholster. THAT is how you keep it simple.

You shouldn't have your gun drawn for extended periods of time. You aren't Jack Bauer. You aren't going to help the Police clear and make safe the area. You aren't going to be cover an exit or an entrance. You aren't going to be issuing verbal commands to the bad guy over a drawn weapon. You aren't going to be issuing commands to bystanders over a drawn weapon.

Pull your gun in your moment of need, then put it away. Improvise if you need to, but the holstered position should be the default and the position that you should be practicing from. Besides all the tactical advantages of not showing the world you have a weapon and the safety advantages of not having a hot weapon in your hand while under extreme stress, God help you if there's video footage of you holding a gun waiting to ambush someone, even a bad guy. All it takes is one attorney to say, "So, you already decided to shoot him before he presented himself to you?" and your clean self defense shoot becomes a Rorschach exercise for the jury.

Keep it simple. Gun stays in holster until you are ready to shoot. Then train that way.

Lots of advice and lots of assumptions but I appreciate your opinion. I totally disagree and will not be doing any of that, nor will I encourage others to do so.

I’m very fortunate to have a range, both for work and personal use, that allows me to draw and move and shoot. Most I’ve been to do not allow that, and most folks I shoot with are not good at drawing and engaging quickly from a concealed holster. I understand your viewpoint, and as I said earlier I think it reads well but is impractical for most folks to execute due to training and human limitations.

Also, didn’t you tell me in item 2 of your previous post that I might not be sure how many threats there are? Now you’re saying after I shoot one, I should reholster immediately and await the next threat? I don’t care for the methods you espouse. Perhaps I’m misunderstanding you. Regardless, I appreciate your opinion and the discussion. But I’ll use a different philosophy in my CCW practices.

I think there's a disconnect between my assertions, and how they apply to everyone's assumptions of the situation. I'm going to attempt to clarify, as I believe and have been taught that my suggestions are good practice. Someone out there may benefit from reading my clarified position.

You want to keep your gun holstered until you are in immediate danger. The admonition is against preemptively drawing your weapon and having it at a low ready in a situation where you are not in immediate danger. Specifically, this is in response to the idea that Ensigmatic would locate his wife, retreat to defensible position, and draw his weapon. This, generally, is a bad idea for the reasons mentioned, but specifically because it presents you as a target for bad guys and law enforcement and takes away your ability to control when a confrontation occurs. The textbook example of this is the CCW holder engaging a bank robber to stop the robbery, and then being blind sided by an accomplice. If your life isn't in immediate danger, it's better to not show your cards.

The above is my original assertion. I also make an assertion that you should be training to fire from a draw. I also stand by this assertion, and I see no reason this assertion needs defending. If you carry a weapon that is concealed in a holster, you should practice engaging from that holster. If you cannot fire from a holster at a range, then you should be practicing with an unloaded weapon in the comfort of your home. You should be dry firing. You should also be practicing clearing malfunctions with snap caps and empty brass, and reloads with mags loaded with snap caps. At least one prominent instructor here on Sigforum advocates that you your dry fire exercises should exceed your live fire practice by a large margin.

Additionally, in an attempt to shore up the idea that you should keep your gun holstered until you are in immediate danger, I state that your gun should stay in your holster until you are ready to shoot. It appears that in my attempt to simplify my position, I overstated it and now others are offering situations where clearly having a drawn weapon is a good idea. Yes, if there is an asshole out there actively shooting people indiscriminately and you are close enough to be set upon by this shooter, then by all means, draw and ready your weapon. Yes, if there's an asshole with a weapon that is actively trying to get into your barricaded room, draw and ready your weapon. The immediacy of the danger should determine whether keeping your gun hidden makes sense but If there is an active shooter at the other end of the mall, drawing your weapon is a tactical disadvantage.

Lastly, this was asked:

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Also, didn’t you tell me in item 2 of your previous post that I might not be sure how many threats there are? Now you’re saying after I shoot one, I should reholster immediately and await the next threat?

Two different statements. One, don't pull your gun on a bad guy until you are ready to shoot him. Don't give accomplices an opportunity to take you down while you have (what you think is the only) bad guy at gunpoint. If he's an immediate threat, end him; but don't preemptively pull your weapon as that exposes you tactically. Two, if you do draw and fire on the badguy and eliminate the threat, you should move (to cover or concealment), scan (assess for other dangers--keep your weapon out for as long as you need), and reholster (when safe to do so). When the police show up, you still risk being mistaken as the shooter. If there's an unknown accomplice, and that accomplice hasn't engaged you when you gunned down his partner or while you are moving to cover or while you are scanning and assessing, may not have seen you and concealing your weapon might give you the tactical advantage again. Keeping your gun out, while you are not in immediate danger, makes you a bullet magnet.

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Originally posted by Ackks:
Where can you really hunker down in a Walmart? There aren't a lot of places you can put your back up against a wall without being exposed from a few directions.

Automotive services department, if the store has one. I confess to not having made a study of Walmarts, but I would guess that the automotive services area would also offer at least one additional escape route. The storage/receiving area/s is another way to go.

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Originally posted by Il Cattivo:

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Originally posted by Ackks:
Where can you really hunker down in a Walmart? There aren't a lot of places you can put your back up against a wall without being exposed from a few directions.

Automotive services department......................

But, What if the shooter hates oil cans???




Link to original video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tcwz8-EfFYE