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Denver Post: "Panicked people, shoppers drawing guns created chaos, delayed investigation into Thornton Walmart shooting" Login/Join 
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posted Hide Post
agree with 1 and 2. Gunfire in nearby vicinity making 1 and 2 necessary, guns out, high alert.
 
Posts: 3529 | Registered: August 19, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Oh stewardess,
I speak jive.
Picture of 46and2
posted Hide Post
Also in today's news, more hilarious incompetence from the Denver police:

source

quote:
Denver police have forgotten about people in their custody overnight three times this year.

one woman, in custody for an unpaid traffic ticket, sat in a sparse police department holding cell for nearly 13 hours. Handcuffed to a bench, Victoria Ugalde could not reach the toilet for much of the time and had no option but to urinate on the floor.
The desk officer who was supposed to check on Ugalde admitted he failed to notice she was there because he was wrapped up in reading a book, titled "Emotional Intelligence 2.0."
 
Posts: 25613 | Registered: March 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Drug Dealer
Picture of Jim Shugart
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A very excellent post, Aeteocles.



When a thing is funny, search it carefully for a hidden truth. - George Bernard Shaw
 
Posts: 15471 | Location: Virginia | Registered: July 03, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Oriental Redneck
Picture of 12131
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A liberal garbage newspaper attempting to paint law abiding gun owners in a bad light? Gee, I'm so shocked. Roll Eyes


Q






 
Posts: 26203 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: September 04, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
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quote:
Originally posted by 12131:
A liberal garbage newspaper attempting to paint law abiding gun owners in a bad light? Gee, I'm so shocked. Roll Eyes


that is precisely what the denver post is. it is so rabidly anti gun...
 
Posts: 5405 | Registered: April 08, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim Shugart:
A very excellent post, Aeteocles.

yeah 100% on his post.
 
Posts: 1803 | Location: Austin TX | Registered: October 30, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Yellow Jacket
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by saigonsmuggler:
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Shugart:
A very excellent post, Aeteocles.

yeah 100% on his post.


Absolutely agree.



God's mercy: NOT getting what we deserve!
God's grace: Getting what we DON'T deserve!

"If the enemy is in range, so are you." - Infantry Journal

Bob
P239 40 S&W
Endowment NRA
Viet Nam '69-'70
 
Posts: 1099 | Location: Fayette County, GA | Registered: April 14, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Ignored facts
still exist
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Poacher:
That could get scary in a hurry if two CCW carriers both drew weapons and were moving to a safe location and ran into each other.


One could make up scenarios that didn't happen all day long.


----------------------
Let's Go Brandon!
 
Posts: 10860 | Location: 45 miles from the Pacific Ocean | Registered: February 28, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Do---or do not.
There is no try.
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by trapper189:
quote:
Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
quote:
Originally posted by Ackks:
I'm sorry, but how many people could have pulled guns to cause a 5 hour delay? I don't buy it at all...


Yeah, it's complete, 100% grade A bull.


Now if it happened at a Wal-Mart in Texas...


If it was at a Wal-Mart in Texas, a couple of armed customers sould have waited at the front door for the police and told the first responding officer, "Cleanup on Aisle Seven, Sir."
 
Posts: 4493 | Registered: January 01, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Poacher
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by radioman:
quote:
Originally posted by Poacher:
That could get scary in a hurry if two CCW carriers both drew weapons and were moving to a safe location and ran into each other.


One could make up scenarios that didn't happen all day long.


Simple food for thought, since people did pull guns.




NRA Life Member

"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are." Teddy Roosevelt
 
Posts: 2242 | Location: Newnan, GA USA | Registered: January 24, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Oriental Redneck
Picture of 12131
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Poacher:
quote:
Originally posted by radioman:
quote:
Originally posted by Poacher:
That could get scary in a hurry if two CCW carriers both drew weapons and were moving to a safe location and ran into each other.


One could make up scenarios that didn't happen all day long.


Simple food for thought, since people did pull guns.

And, nothing scary happened. Wink


Q






 
Posts: 26203 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: September 04, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Actually, the CCW holders also may have had another reason not to attempt apprehending the idiot attempting violence (I hate dignifying him with the title "shooter"). Colorado, from a short search I just made, does not have a "stand your ground" law. Attempting to apprehend someone, technically, may be a violation of the law there. If they had an avenue of retreat, they may have been correct under the law in retreating rather than engaging the idiot. They also were under no obligation to protect the public.

I recently completed a CCW training course in Minnesota. Minnesota also has no stand your ground statute. Retreating, if the way is available, is exactly what the law calls for. Defending anyone other than yourself or family members or anyone else over the age of 7 years (go figure about the latter) is a legally grey area where I currently am. Perhaps someone familiar with Colorado law would have a better answer.


A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master-and deserves one. Ronald Reagan, 1964, quoted from Alexander Hamilton
 
Posts: 1684 | Location: Southern Tennessee | Registered: February 10, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of arabiancowboy
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quote:
Originally posted by Aeteocles:
quote:
Originally posted by ensigmatic:
If I heard shooting in such a venue: Step 1: Locate wife. Step 2: Retreat to defensible position and draw. Step 3: Wait for uniforms to show.


I was taught to not draw.

1. Don't want to be mistaken for the bad guy. Weapon in hand makes you an immediate threat to all first responders, and no amount of screaming, "It's not me, bro!" is going to convince them otherwise. You have a gun in hand, you are suddenly a priority and you'll end up on the ground with cuffs at some point. More importantly, you are distracting resources from the real threat.

2. Drawing your weapon, with no immediate intent to start shooting, puts you at a tactical disadvantage. There is no way to be sure that you've identified all the bad guys, so drawing your weapon makes you a target There is no way to be sure that you've identified all the bad guys, so drawing your weapon makes you a target. This happened at another Walmart shooting in Vegas where a CCW holder drew his weapon on a bad guy, and then an accomplice came up behind him and put a bullet in his head.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/art...r-victim-5545824.php

3). Keeping your weapon hidden gives you the element of surprise and flexibility to respond to situations as it changes. If you have your gun out, and bad guy sees you, you are basically forced to exchange fire for good or bad. If your gun is hidden, you can time your attack to make optimal effect. If it becomes a hostage situation, you might be able to stash your weapon or keep it hidden until the time is right.


Your strategy should be 1) Locate wife. 2) Retreat to safety, or if safety not available, to a defensible position. 3) Prepare to draw, but keep your gun hidden.


I understand, but disagree. First, to the bolder section above, the shooter came in and killed people randomly. You are no more or less a target in this situation with or without a weapon. He is killing at random. Ergo, I’d argue prudence dictates preparation for immediate contact.

Secondly, I think this kind of nuanced action planning fails to adequently account for the human aspect of processing adrenaline. KISS is the appropriate acronym for most people in most situations. Your idea of staying cool and composed, playing it tactically smart while also positioned strategically for a hostage standoff, etc. reads well and sounds doable but is totally impossible for most people. Including me. I know my limits. In an instance where an assailant is walking through Walmart shooting at random, I think the safest play most CCW could execute is exactly what ensigmatic outlined. Are there disadvantages to drawing? Yes, but they are outweighed by advantages.
 
Posts: 2392 | Registered: May 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
legendary_lawman
Picture of prairieviper
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Aeteocles:
quote:
Originally posted by ensigmatic:
If I heard shooting in such a venue: Step 1: Locate wife. Step 2: Retreat to defensible position and draw. Step 3: Wait for uniforms to show.


I was taught to not draw.

1. Don't want to be mistaken for the bad guy. Weapon in hand makes you an immediate threat to all first responders, and no amount of screaming, "It's not me, bro!" is going to convince them otherwise. You have a gun in hand, you are suddenly a priority and you'll end up on the ground with cuffs at some point. More importantly, you are distracting resources from the real threat.

2. Drawing your weapon, with no immediate intent to start shooting, puts you at a tactical disadvantage. There is no way to be sure that you've identified all the bad guys, so drawing your weapon makes you a target. This happened at another Walmart shooting in Vegas where a CCW holder drew his weapon on a bad guy, and then an accomplice came up behind him and put a bullet in his head.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/art...r-victim-5545824.php

3). Keeping your weapon hidden gives you the element of surprise and flexibility to respond to situations as it changes. If you have your gun out, and bad guy sees you, you are basically forced to exchange fire for good or bad. If your gun is hidden, you can time your attack to make optimal effect. If it becomes a hostage situation, you might be able to stash your weapon or keep it hidden until the time is right.


Your strategy should be 1) Locate wife. 2) Retreat to safety, or if safety not available, to a defensible position. 3) Prepare to draw, but keep your gun hidden.


Excellent reply. I agree with everything you said. We will never no how many people were carrying that did exactly what you said.

Many people carrying concealed are not trained gunfighters and may never have engaged in schoolyard fisticuffs, let alone anything more serious. They qualified to get their concealed carry permit so that they could protect themselves and/or their families, that's it. I imagine that hearing shots, some might have gotten scared and the first thing that came to mind was to pull their gun. Maybe upon reflection, those folks will think that wasn't such a good idea and take a different tact if they ever find themselves in a similar situation in the future.


"In God We Trust"
 
Posts: 1992 | Location: Central USA - Cornfields & Cows | Registered: May 19, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Equal Opportunity Mocker
Picture of slabsides45
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Can you picture the small dark room where the police are all crowding around the recorder's monitor, looking over the employee's shoulder as he rewinds and searches for them?

Cops: There are multiple people in multiple areas of the store with guns drawn! This is going to take us DAYS to figure out who done it!!

Clerk: Uhm, excuse me, but wouldn't that guy with the gun pointed be your guy? There, the one with the gun looking like it's jumping in his hand?

Cops: Well... we saw that, and I agree that he too should be investigated. But those other folks are probably involved, since they had guns. Maybe it'll only take HOURS to decide, not DAYS. Good work, men!

Roll Eyes


________________________________________________

"You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving."
-Dr. Adrian Rogers
 
Posts: 6389 | Location: Mogadishu on the Mississippi | Registered: February 26, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Constable
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Regarding the statement from the ex NY Cop...Because NY Cops see so many CCW holders in the course of their careers in NYC!

What an ass clown!

I have been around several situations where CCW holders were also on scene. Each and EVERY time...they were not the folks who shot innocent people. Pretty easy to weed them out.
 
Posts: 7074 | Location: Craig, MT | Registered: December 17, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
delicately calloused
Picture of darthfuster
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The DP seems to think the point of my being armed is not to defend my life as much as it is to convenience a police investigation after the fact. I'd rather there be fewer bodies to process.



You’re a lying dog-faced pony soldier
 
Posts: 29607 | Location: Highland, Ut. | Registered: May 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
eh-TEE-oh-clez
Picture of Aeteocles
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by arabiancowboy:
quote:
Originally posted by Aeteocles:
quote:
Originally posted by ensigmatic:
If I heard shooting in such a venue: Step 1: Locate wife. Step 2: Retreat to defensible position and draw. Step 3: Wait for uniforms to show.


I was taught to not draw.

1. Don't want to be mistaken for the bad guy. Weapon in hand makes you an immediate threat to all first responders, and no amount of screaming, "It's not me, bro!" is going to convince them otherwise. You have a gun in hand, you are suddenly a priority and you'll end up on the ground with cuffs at some point. More importantly, you are distracting resources from the real threat.

2. Drawing your weapon, with no immediate intent to start shooting, puts you at a tactical disadvantage. There is no way to be sure that you've identified all the bad guys, so drawing your weapon makes you a target There is no way to be sure that you've identified all the bad guys, so drawing your weapon makes you a target. This happened at another Walmart shooting in Vegas where a CCW holder drew his weapon on a bad guy, and then an accomplice came up behind him and put a bullet in his head.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/art...r-victim-5545824.php

3). Keeping your weapon hidden gives you the element of surprise and flexibility to respond to situations as it changes. If you have your gun out, and bad guy sees you, you are basically forced to exchange fire for good or bad. If your gun is hidden, you can time your attack to make optimal effect. If it becomes a hostage situation, you might be able to stash your weapon or keep it hidden until the time is right.


Your strategy should be 1) Locate wife. 2) Retreat to safety, or if safety not available, to a defensible position. 3) Prepare to draw, but keep your gun hidden.


I understand, but disagree. First, to the bolder section above, the shooter came in and killed people randomly. You are no more or less a target in this situation with or without a weapon. He is killing at random. Ergo, I’d argue prudence dictates preparation for immediate contact.

Secondly, I think this kind of nuanced action planning fails to adequently account for the human aspect of processing adrenaline. KISS is the appropriate acronym for most people in most situations. Your idea of staying cool and composed, playing it tactically smart while also positioned strategically for a hostage standoff, etc. reads well and sounds doable but is totally impossible for most people. Including me. I know my limits. In an instance where an assailant is walking through Walmart shooting at random, I think the safest play most CCW could execute is exactly what ensigmatic outlined. Are there disadvantages to drawing? Yes, but they are outweighed by advantages.


Nearly all of your practice with your CCW should be from a draw. It's a CCW, it should stay concealed. If the gun clears your holster, it should be with the intent that the gun will immediately go bang. After it goes bang, move, scan and carefully reholster. THAT is how you keep it simple.

You shouldn't have your gun drawn for extended periods of time. You aren't Jack Bauer. You aren't going to help the Police clear and make safe the area. You aren't going to be cover an exit or an entrance. You aren't going to be issuing verbal commands to the bad guy over a drawn weapon. You aren't going to be issuing commands to bystanders over a drawn weapon.

Pull your gun in your moment of need, then put it away. Improvise if you need to, but the holstered position should be the default and the position that you should be practicing from. Besides all the tactical advantages of not showing the world you have a weapon and the safety advantages of not having a hot weapon in your hand while under extreme stress, God help you if there's video footage of you holding a gun waiting to ambush someone, even a bad guy. All it takes is one attorney to say, "So, you already decided to shoot him before he presented himself to you?" and your clean self defense shoot becomes a Rorschach exercise for the jury.

Keep it simple. Gun stays in holster until you are ready to shoot. Then train that way.
 
Posts: 13046 | Location: Orange County, California | Registered: May 19, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
safe & sound
Picture of a1abdj
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quote:
You shouldn't have your gun drawn for extended periods of time. You aren't Jack Bauer. You aren't going to help the Police clear and make safe the area. You aren't going to be cover an exit or an entrance. You aren't going to be issuing verbal commands to the bad guy over a drawn weapon. You aren't going to be issuing commands to bystanders over a drawn weapon.



I'm not so sure. You're inside that store without an officer in sight. When the police do arrive, they set up in the parking lot and spend some time trying to figure out what they are going to do.

You're on your own. If you and your family decide that you're making your way to the nearest exit, you may very well be covering them. If you encounter a bad guy along the way, you may very well yell "orders" at them. If you're with a group other than your family you may very well be giving them orders over a drawn weapon.

I have pulled my weapon once and didn't shoot. I have also been in a life or death situation, unarmed, against an armed lunatic. Real life and theory often differ when you find yourself in that situation.


________________________



www.zykansafe.com
 
Posts: 15693 | Location: St. Charles, MO, USA | Registered: September 22, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
delicately calloused
Picture of darthfuster
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by a1abdj:
quote:
You shouldn't have your gun drawn for extended periods of time. You aren't Jack Bauer. You aren't going to help the Police clear and make safe the area. You aren't going to be cover an exit or an entrance. You aren't going to be issuing verbal commands to the bad guy over a drawn weapon. You aren't going to be issuing commands to bystanders over a drawn weapon.



I'm not so sure. You're inside that store without an officer in sight. When the police do arrive, they set up in the parking lot and spend some time trying to figure out what they are going to do.

You're on your own. If you and your family decide that you're making your way to the nearest exit, you may very well be covering them. If you encounter a bad guy along the way, you may very well yell "orders" at them. If you're with a group other than your family you may very well be giving them orders over a drawn weapon.

I have pulled my weapon once and didn't shoot. I have also been in a life or death situation, unarmed, against an armed lunatic. Real life and theory often differ when you find yourself in that situation.


I agree. If I find myself in that situation I'll determine when I draw. I won't defer to an innerwebs opinion.



You’re a lying dog-faced pony soldier
 
Posts: 29607 | Location: Highland, Ut. | Registered: May 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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