quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:
Narcan has given this round of heroin users a false sense or even a safety net, so they go for a bigger and bigger "high" and think that if they OD, a first responder with Narcan will bring them right back......

So here's one out of the "you can't make this stuff up " category. We had a "two fer" OD not too long ago. #1 ODd, #2 calls EMS, then proceeded to use an excessive amount of his streetside pharmaceutical of choice, knowing he was safe as rescue was en route already!!

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Shugart:

quote:

Drug use doesn't affect the user, it affects their family, their community, society. Drug addict often resort to theft, prostitution, robbery to fund their addiction since they can't keep jobs. the cascade effects hit our judicial systems, health care, insurance, etc.

All of that is indisputable. It also all goes away very soon after they OD and come to room temperature.

I think about my son's death every day. I'd have to disagree with you.

Sorry for the loss of your son, Dresden.

Most fatal drug ODs had people who loved them and will miss them. An old GF of mine (actually another pharmacist) died of an overdose of prescription opiates.

I didn't intend my post to be harsh or hateful to you or to others who have lost loved ones to addiction.

Thank you Jim. I just don't know how we as a country can stop this epidemic. It's overwhelming.

just let them have at it for six months and the problem will solve itself by attrition

doesn't cost a dime

quote:

Originally posted by Dresden:
Thank you Jim. I just don't know how we as a country can stop this epidemic. It's overwhelming.

We won't.

The epidemic will peter itself out when enough of the users die from OD.

We have been fighting the "war on drugs" for several decades-we are not winning-we won't. (because we are not prepared to do what needs to be done)

Until we, as a society, are willing to do what has to be done. IF, that includes burning fields of poppies when our troops discover them as they are afield in Afghanistan or elsewhere (instead of paying the "Farmer" when our boys destroy their crops), or spraying fields of Coca in Colombia or fields of marijuana in Mexico, Honduras, America...then...just maybe, we will begin making headway on this war on drugs.

But, there needs to be a severe penalty here, on the users and sellers and everyone else involved in it-to make it work. Not some mamby pamby BS excuse for why Ray-ray got a bad deal with his prosecutor who let him plead to a lesser charge-Ray-ray needs to do some serious "big rocks to little rocks " time/punishment. Not the BS carp we have going on for drug dealers now. HAMMER them. immediately. then Hammer the next guy and the next and so on and so on ad infinitum

Its all over the US. high school kids here mix it with water and put nasal spray bottles.

Buy it on the dark web and it is untraceable. No test for it.

Damn drug dealers are cutting it into thier heroin to make it stronger and cost less. This has caused the OD's to skyrocket. Narcan can't even stop it in some cases.

I understand people make poor life choices- I am not totally heartless but with so many other problems of a similar nature affecting our country, we need to help people ONCE!! If I were king getting narcan would result in a permanent stain at the injection site. Next OD if stain is present no more narcan!
I will be benevolent enough to help you if you fall ONCE. After that I consider any effort or resource expenditure what so ever not in our countries best interest

quote:

Originally posted by captain127:
If I were king getting narcan would result in a permanent stain at the injection site. Next OD if stain is present no more narcan!
I will be benevolent enough to help you if you fall ONCE. After that I consider any effort or resource expenditure what so ever not in our countries best interest

Narcan is administered intranasally...the device I had was a one time squirt up the nostril delivering 4mg of Narcan....the local EMS uses a syringe filled with 2mg of Narcan and the end is a white porous glob they stick in our nose...

No injection site to stain....

But I get where you are coming from.

quote:

Originally posted by captain127:
I understand people make poor life choices- I am not totally heartless but with so many other problems of a similar nature affecting our country, we need to help people ONCE!! If I were king getting narcan would result in a permanent stain at the injection site. Next OD if stain is present no more narcan!
I will be benevolent enough to help you if you fall ONCE. After that I consider any effort or resource expenditure what so ever not in our countries best interest

I agree with this. I have friends that are EMT/paramedics and they tell me they have numerous people that they have given Narcan to on 5-10 different occasions. It's pretty ridiculous and we are all paying the money for it.

this case is in Ohio, not Baltimore

but it is another potential incident

Fairborn paramedic overdoses driving OD patient to hospital

http://www.daytondailynews.com...RC1Orm0h6gsx9ouyvrJ/

A Fairborn firefighter-paramedic driving a suspected overdose patient to the hospital Thursday night began showing symptoms of an overdose himself, prompting his partner to jump into action and stop the ambulance in the middle of the road.

“He was not feeling right. He was having issues seeing the speedometer controls,” said David Reichert, division chief for Fairborn fire. “His partner in the back was immediately able to stop the medic in the middle of an intersection.”

The partner administered Narcan to the firefighter-paramedic. He and the 49-year-old woman patient were taken to Soin Medical Center in Beavercreek, Reichert said. The woman and firefighter, whose names have not been released, have recovered.

“There’s nothing like going to the hospital and seeing one of our guys in the hospital bed who has just been given Narcan to pull him away from dying,”

Evidence collected at the scene was sent to a crime lab, where investigators should learn which chemical caused the overdoses, Fairborn police Capt. Terry Bennington said.

The full details of what happened at Soin remain unclear, including an apparent incident involving the hospital’s staff.

Reichert said once fire department personnel arrived at the hospital “it was determined that we needed to ramp up our decontamination process” after he said an additional six firefighters had to be decontaminated using showers.

Reichert also referenced something that “happened with Soin Hospital and Soin Hospital staff,” but neither he nor other city officials would elaborate.

“We were advised that there were some issues at the hospital, but I don’t think anyone up here is at liberty to speak for Soin,”

Ohio Attorney Gen. Mike DeWine feared just such an incident in July 2016 and issued two bulletins within a week warning agencies to take precautions against coming into contact with drugs, including foregoing field testing of evidence.

One of DeWine’s alerts was for the drug carfentanil, used to sedate elephants and other large animals. A small quantity of these powerful drugs absorbed through the skin or inhaled by a human can lead to overdose and death.

An eastern Ohio police officer overdosed in May and was revived with four doses of Narcan after he came into contact with suspected fentanyl during a traffic stop.

The articles always claim that the good guys were incidentally overdosed and treated with Narcan, but none ever mention toxicology reports that would prove that's the case.

Many experts say it isn't that easy, and they believe that reports of overdosing are actually other medical events (or imagination).

Was listening to the radio yesterday, story on the news was urging people to use the wipes on grocery carts, as they have found fentanyl, and other drugs that had been wiped on the push handles in some city's.

quote:

Originally posted by sdy:
in the article, one drug user said when she found out someone OD'd on a particular drug, that is the drug she wanted because it would be powerful.

^^^^^^^^^^^
That is common with drug users.

toxicity

https://www.dea.gov/divisions/.../hq092216_attach.pdf




the pic shows potentially lethal dose for fentanyl at 2 mg

carfentanil lethal dose would be very roughly 100 times less at 20 micrograms

in dealing with lethal doses of chemicals, there can be a wide range of values over a human population (some are more susceptible, some less).

literature says the effects of carfentanil can be felt at the 1 microgram level

1 microgram would be 0.0005 of the powder in the pic

Wow, this is crazy. I don't trust someone else's hand loads, but druggies trust some low life dealer to get it right at the 2mg or 2 microgram level? Cray-cray.

I wonder what the numbers are: How many heroine users? How many annual fatal ODs? How many new users per year? Are the numbers dwindling, growing, or staying level?

I don't understand how, if Emergency Responders can overdose just from touching a person that used carfentanil, how can anyone handle it to package and sell it without overdosing themselves ? I wouldn't expect distributors and street dealers to have the kind of gear necessary for that.

Life is about choices. If I choose to be an alcoholic -- that's my choice. If someone chooses to ingest illegal drugs -- they made that choice. Got no sympathy for them, nor myself, should I choose to abuse anything.

I think most of the recent reports are about more wide spread use of fentanyl rather than carfentanil

I have never had much sympathy for addicts, alcoholics and the such. I have had my own problems with alcohol when I was younger and managed to quit until I figured it out. I feel bad for them but they made choices at some point before it became an addiction to dance with their devil.

With that said, I recently attended a funeral for my next door neighbor's son's (and my sons best friend from about 7th grade through HS and his best man) girl friend. She had a job, was a caring and kind person and had recently helped the neighbor's son (age 25) through a year long battle with cancer. I knew her well enough, she had a job, worked and seemed normal in every way. I feel bad for my sons friend and her family. I feel a lot of this is because we have a society of young people that have almost everything handed to them and there is a emptiness for them that they are looking to fill. If you dance with the devil, you don't change the devil the devil changes you.