Like I said, the wealthier people in America not only are beta testing EV, they are championing it. You know what you haven’t heard a single word from? Think economic strata. This is mostly an upper middle class idea. People with disposable income. People who have no issue paying for the proper wall charger to be installed. In their garage.

At best in my opinion EV supplements ICE. It can’t replace it. The future needs a vehicle that can replace it. This is a temporary stretch of road and I fear that we will be on it longer than what is smart because a shit ton of people have bought into technology and plans that are based on perceived future jumps in technology. It’s kind of crazy stupid. What happens when the next better battery is an incremental improvement or plateau’s. The expected leap in tech doesn’t materialize?

Seems like a lot of eggs in one basket. I’m one of those upper middle class families. I drive beyond the range of EV often enough I will always need at least one ICE style vehicle. With kids at home from college and visiting that I have had anywhere from 3-6 cars sitting on front of my house. Should I invest in extension cords? The plug in short range model works for financially viable, house living, shortish commute, don’t drive long, and don’t live anywhere near hurricane country. It almost demands you own a second car. Which defeats the primary purpose of EV. This has been sold as our savior. Our gift to the planet. If it’s just really a cool tech, fast car for rich people what exact issue is solved?

I'm not here to solve all the issues EV faces in the future. Don't really care what the future holds. That's for the idiot millennials to figure out.

The current state works for me for now. I've already pre-purchased the fuel. It's a waste to not utilize it. I read that the 3 may offer an extended range for $25k w/in the next year or so (but can't confirm). I've read that Toyota may offer an EV with their solid state battery w/in a year as well (although prior targets were 2025).

If one of these two things were to happen w/in the next year, I would gladly wait. But if they are still several years off, then I can buy the 3 for now.

I'm only buying the 3 base model resulting in a reasonable break even period for my situation. I'll look at the Y but off the cuff, not sure what the advantage is over the 3.

EVs have the potential to be much more affordable than ICE vehicles. They, by design, can be more reliable, have lower cost of maintenance, and have better performance than the comparably priced ICE. To get a sedan with the same level of driving performance as a Tesla Model S, you would need to look at a Porsche Panera or the like. We're talking big sedans with 0-60's under 4 seconds. Currently, the trend has been to sell upmarket vehicles to recoup development costs (expensive cars have higher margins), but a number of manufacturers are beginning to target more affordable cars.

The range concerns are valid, but only to to a point. Battery technology is improving quickly. Probably more quickly than the growth of the charging network. But the charging network is growing. The network down here in SoCal is good. I see empty chargers in almost every shopping center. This will likely expand to other states.

Apartment dwellers will likely be late adopters. Much like the washing machine, some apartments will offer in-garage charging, others will have to offer communal charging.

I don't see this as a rich people only play.

Like I said, I’ve got no problem with the wealthier in America beta testing a product. I just chuckle though at the marketing and the ridiculous rationalization of some to justify their purchase (not directed at anyone in particular so no panty twisting).

I have a hankering to lift my Subaru and put on bigger wheels. I’m old enough I should know better. It’s my money though and I get to spend it as I see fit. My issue with EV in general is that the marketing and politicization is to save the planet. Buying an EV for daily driving and having an ICE for the other stuff is wildly worse for the environment. In every way. Then there is the folks who are absolutely convinced the future tech will “fix” some of the current issues. It’s ludicrous to bank on future leaps in tech to gap the issues. It’s a gamble. Hell, it’s a gamble that EV is the future at all. There’s a whole lot of valid reasons why it might not be the future. Once again, people with disposable cash are willingly testing it all out for the rest of us.

It’s cool tech. It’s fast. It’s cheap and reasonable for lots of driving needs. I’m glad you guys love it. Recognize though that your grand children might look back and laugh at our silliness of thinking EV was the future of transportation.

Of course I thought you would explode if you went faster than horses so we shall see.

As a born and bred Californian I think using SoCal as an example is a poor one. What you see is govt mandate driven not market driven. In a forum where everyone seems to love pure capitalism it’s a funny example. Without the Cali assembly shoving this down the markets throat you wouldn’t be seeing most of this. You just sound rich. Listen to you. In garage charging. I lived in a lot of apartments over the years. All over the country (Navy). I never had a garage at a single apartment. Ever. In 6 states. I’m sure I would love to have had an apartment with a garage. This is absolutely a rich person (upper middle class and up) process. If you are struggling to pay the bills you aren’t buying an overpriced Corolla plug in. You are buying an old corolla period. This is absolutely a subject for people with disposable income, don’t kid yourself.

I would wager every single person on this thread who has or will soon own a pure EV (most likely as a second car) earns well into the six figures. Anybody want to raise their hand and tell me they live in a trailer and are considering their Tesla? Yea, didn’t think so. Wealthy problems.

That’s a very valid point - and there are “true believers” who stretch to buy them.

Given how fast battery prices drop, they may well become the cheap option in the future.

I didn’t realize how well hydrogen fuel cells are working now - and a NG fuel cell would be a great energy source for a car, if they could get those to the same efficiency as the hydrogen ones.

(The hydrogen will still, probably, be made from NG, but it could work well.).

Or, he’ll, just switching cars to run in Ng would be simple, and cheap, and greatly increase our energy independence.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:

I would wager every single person on this thread who has or will soon own a pure EV (most likely as a second car) earns well into the six figures. Anybody want to raise their hand and tell me they live in a trailer and are considering their Tesla? Yea, didn’t think so. Wealthy problems.

I’ll take that wager... email in profile

I’ve never made 6 digits. Been with the same company for 20yrs and a couple 5 digits away from it. Above the median, Certainly

My EV has become my primary vehicle. 4 runner is now the secondary

I’ve been a beta tester for Sig for years, guess I’m ok with doing it for a different industry

quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles:
EVs have the potential to be much more affordable than ICE vehicles. They, by design, can be more reliable, have lower cost of maintenance, and have better performance than the comparably priced ICE. To get a sedan with the same level of driving performance as a Tesla Model S, you would need to look at a Porsche Panera or the like. We're talking big sedans with 0-60's under 4 seconds. Currently, the trend has been to sell upmarket vehicles to recoup development costs (expensive cars have higher margins), but a number of manufacturers are beginning to target more affordable cars.

The range concerns are valid, but only to to a point. Battery technology is improving quickly. Probably more quickly than the growth of the charging network. But the charging network is growing. The network down here in SoCal is good. I see empty chargers in almost every shopping center. This will likely expand to other states.

That's my hope. That the EV will yield a lower TCO than the alternative ICE I would purchase. Looking to keep out the door cost around $30k (including taxes, fees, credits). I don't care about stellar performance (0-60 < 8s is fine); just enough to have flexibility to safely merge onto highways and avoid certain situations.

The way I look at it: 3 costs about $33K, alternative ICE is about $30K. I'm looking at a near term breakeven point between EV and ICE initial costs. With a longer term TCO benefit with the EV.

This is all about TCO and reliability / maintenance and getting from A to B. Not about luxury or performance. To an extent, range is important because it will be used monthly for 350 mile day trips. Other than that, we have other ICE vehicles for extended trips and vacations. 3 today would require a top off; 3 w/ the new extended range battery could easily make the round trip w/o top off - this would be extremely convenient as 350 miles makes for a long day.

I care not about saving the world or going green. The world is fine. The people may be fucked, but the world is fine. But I believe the people will have more dramatic issues to face than what going green would address. And beyond my time here either way.

And again, I care not what happens with EV in the long run. Today, it addresses a need and provides a benefit. I'm only interested in what EV will be available within the next year or so.

I have a PHEV I don't make 100k. mine has about 25miles of range, enough for me to get to my office and back. no gas used during the week, I go 3 maybe 4 weeks without fueling it

quote:

I’ve never made 6 digits.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but based solely on the difference in the cost of living (housing and taxes, I'm looking at you), 6 figures in SoCal is probably about the same as 5 figures down near the "Rigolets".

Everyday something new comes out.

SONDORS ANNOUNCES A $5000 ELECTRIC MOTORCYCLE
Sondors, an American brand of electric bikes that started with a crowdfunding campaign in 2015 has just announced their first motorcycle. Called the Metacycle, it features a space-age design, using a 8000W permanent magnet AC hub motor (nominal, 14.5kW peak) and a 4000Wh battery, and will cost $5000. This is a pretty astonishing price, considering the performance. They claim an 80 mile range, and a top speed of 80 mph, but with anything electric, don’t expect to get that claimed range going at the top speed.
https://electricbikeaction.com...electric-motorcycle/

Pickman-XR---The-Coolest-Utility-Pickup-
Off-Road, On-Road & Beyond.
4x4, Dual Motor, 10kW Motor at the rear axle, 5kW Motor at the front axle
Various speed modes, Dual lithium battery packs
Fast-swap in or power electronics, Solar charging capable
Drive On Public Roads
Class, Leading, Performance
3 ton towing & 1 ton payload
125* mile range per charge
Top speed (off road) of 60mph+
https://www.thepickman.com/?fb...T9dN6hRf-iWdasvYeH3U

Don’t forget some States are taxing EV cars by mileage driven to recoup lost tax monies from less fuel purchased for EV’s.Government always gets theirs somehow.

I suspect I'll be equally disinterested later as I am now.

It's a solution in search of a problem, propped up by Taxpayer funds, largely.

Once that's all sorted out and over with, maybe I'll care more.

I've no interest in Energy Welfare, thanks.

Talk to me when it's a technology that is better by standing on its own.

I'm fairly sick of paying for other people's shit.

Enjoy your "free" electricity. You're fucking welcome, I guess.

quote:

Originally posted by stoic-one:

quote:

I’ve never made 6 digits.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but based solely on the difference in the cost of living (housing and taxes, I'm looking at you), 6 figures in SoCal is probably about the same as 5 figures down near the "Rigolets".

No mention nor reference about cost of living or regionalism in the original statement

Be surprised at cost of living around me. Mostly because of insurance rates. Wind and hail- $6000. Flood 10k. Orleans Parish taxes....

quote:

Originally posted by 46and2:
I'm fairly sick of paying for other people's shit.

Enjoy your "free" electricity. You're fucking welcome, I guess.

I'm sorry. How much do you pay for electricity? I keep my house at 78-80F during the summer and still pay nearly $400 per month. Others in the region pay upwards of $1500 per month because they have special needs (can't open windows because of allergies, need to keep the house cooler for kids, etc).

Sorry if it makes financial sense to use solar power here. Perhaps you're lucky that electricity costs are reasonable for you?

ETA: I should add the gas is usually north of $4/gallon for me as well.

quote:

Originally posted by bigdeal:

quote:

Originally posted by shoupdawg:
That said, in the next 5-10 years, we will have charging stations that will charge as fast or faster than current gas stations and also new vehicles with longer ranges...this will be the beginning of the end for gas powered vehicles.

Got $100 you want to put on that prediction? Until we see a huge jump in current battery tech, fast charging an EV battery in 5 minutes isn't happening. Range is also something dependent on that next battery tech innovation as there is a limit on what manufacturers are going to be able to get out of current battery tech. And something most EV enthusiasts fail to reconcile, where will all this new electricity come from to power these EV's? The leftists won't allow the use of anything petroleum based to generate power, and since nuclear is out, that doesn't leave a solution. Your state can't even meet its current day electricity requirements without rolling blackouts.

My prediction...the internal combustion vehicle is going to be around for a very long time into the future, well beyond my remaining life span. Does that mean there is no role for EV's? Nope. It just means that until something really game changing occurs with battery tech, the role of EV's will continue to be very limited, regardless the wet dreams of politicians and tree huggers.

^^^^^

I agree. My brother is a physicist for NASA and is heavily involved in their plans for a manned mission to Mars. One of the biggest problems is battery technology. While there are some interesting research areas, according to him/NASA we still are looking for that quantum breakthrough that will allow a Mars mission. The missing link, so to speak, applies to EV cars too and it’s not there or close to being there. We need a major breakthrough not minor improvements in battery tech. For example, most experts doubt Tesla’s claim of a 500 mile range for their upcoming Roadster that is, unless the whole car is a battery.

Finally, I live two miles from work. Spending the money and infrastructure dollars to “fuel” an EV” car for a DD doesn’t make any sense for me at current gasoline prices. Even a Prius is doubtful. A round trip of 4 miles equates to one gallon of gas a week in commuting costs based upon my truck’s MPG or less than $200 a year in gasoline costs.

It will come, but I’m expecting it to be a generation away unless there is a the 21st Century version of the Manhattan project to really get the battery tech issues fixed.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: BB61,

If you want to play the odds, the average Tesla driver is likely paying for a lot of everyone else's free shit, even when you account for whatever subsidies you think they are getting that the petroleum and auto industry isn't.

I certainly take advantage of every tax strategy, rebate, and subsidy that is made available to me without even a little bit guilt. I'm certain that my tax contribution far exceeds my consumption.

I like the potential of electric cars, but the current iterations are the transportation equivalent of the compact fluorescent light bulb. Whether they're actually better is debatable and depends on where you stick the goalposts. We're still waiting on the breakthrough that will push them over the top and into widespread use. I really think it will come in the next 5-10 years, and at that point there won't really be any arguments against. After all, who still uses an incandescent flashlight?

Yup. Rich guy problems.

To dovetail into the NASA post above, you guys are starting a trip to Mars hoping the tech advances enough to get you there and back while on the trip. I think it’s great you guys do this. When the tech jump doesn’t happen though, or happens way later than helpful, or they figure out a better system than batteries, you guys will be the betamax guys. No big deal because you guys enjoy the cars as is but don’t be shocked that the rest of us aren’t as ecstatic as you guys are about tech that may or may not materialize. Can we agree the current tech isn’t there yet at least?

Nope. I'll stick with Dinosaur Juice, RWD & 3 pedals.

If you are expecting Tesla to sale a model 3 with twice the range for a starting price of 25K you are dreaming. They are a luxury car company they never pass on the savings to their customers they nickel and dime you for everything. When a new model car comes out you can't order the cheapest version you have to add everything AWD, extended battery etc then after a 1 or 2 years you can get the cheapest version. Want a differnet color paint extra, differnt interior color extra, different rims extra.

I looked at a model 3 when they first came out when my state had 10K in tax credits but oh no you can't buy the 35K sticker price version you have to wait in line for the people buying that car with 15K in add ons and by the time they filled all those orders the 10K tax credits ran out sorry no 25K car for you.

They have fixed it somewhat on the website but to the less savy the price includes 6300 dollars in estimated gas and maintanace savings used to say 5000 bucks. So when you check out the price jumps up to 6300 dollars more very sketchy to me.

Anyways after crunching the numbers buying a EV much less a Tesla wasn't going to save me any real money just put me in the seat of a new car and a luxury one at that.

Currently drive a 08 Civic and it's paid off with low miles and cost next to nothing to maintain.

Now a Tesla model 3 will triple my insurance with a clean driving record to a Merceded/BMW range if not higher. I only pay 30 bucks a year for oil changes since my commute is so small 10 miles a day on average, only put 20 bucks in gas every 2 weeks and flushing fluids and tune ups are only every couple of years so it's no real savings for a EV. Oh and don't forget the registration I pay 110 a year a Tesla starts at over 600 plus dollars a year depending on the price of which model you bought.

Biggest deal killer is I live in a apartment so I can't charge the dam thing when I get home.

Don't even get me started on the autopilot they have been promising for years and have been raising the price for a feature they charge you up front and you don't even get to use with no real date when it will be ready. And even if they do get it up and running do you think the the goverment will just let self driving cars hit the road day one with out testing or regulations up the wazzoo?

And with parts and repairs limited to Tesla specific shops and luxury vehicle prices what's the point?


A friend of mine works for a major company trying to find a way to extend the range of lithium batteries out of the same size and they been dumping money into it for years. He tells me unless some ground breaking break through occurs you can't store more energy in a fixed size battery. It's like trying to fill a 15 gallon gas tank with 20 gallons of fuel their is no physical space to do it.