SIGforum.com Main Page The Lounge USS John S. McCain collides with merchant ship in Pacific ***Update with report page 18***
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| Go ahead punk, make my day |
It is a relatively new practice for the SWOs, changed maybe 8-10 years ago - Ship XOs (if successful in that tour) would promote and be selected to be CO of another ship. At some point it changed to the fleet up from Xo to CO (like happens in Navy Aircraft Squadrons). I know because a friend of mine selected for XO of a DDG = but the orders got cancelled since they were changing the process - but he eventually screened for command and did the XO fleet up to CO of a DDG. | |||
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| wishing we were congress |
https://news.usni.org/2018/02/...liction-duty-hearing The number two in command of the guided-missile destroyer involved in a fatal collision off of Singapore in August was found guilty of dereliction of duty on this week, according to a statement from the Navy. Cmdr. Jessie L. Sanchez, former executive officer of USS John S. McCain (DDG-56), was found guilty of violating Article 92 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice during a Monday non-judicial punishment hearing in Washington, D.C. Sanchez received a punitive letter of reprimand in the hearing overseen by Adm. James Caldwell. Additionally, Caldwell also held hearings and ultimately dismissed charges for an officer and enlisted sailor who served on USS Fitzgerald (DDG-62) during a fatal collision off the coast of Japan in June. The Navy said the hearings were the last of Caldwell’s planned non-judicial actions. With the addition of Sanchez, a total of 18 sailors have received non-judicial punishment for the two collisions the Navy has called preventable. The receipt of non-judicial punishment does not constitute a criminal conviction (it is equivalent to a civil action) Next month, the former commanders of both ships and three sailors who were on Fitzgerald face a preliminary hearing for criminal charges related to the collisions that include hazarding a ship, dereliction of duty and negligent homicide. Former McCain CO Cmdr. Alfredo J. Sanchez will appear before a military judge at the Washington Navy Yard on March 6. Former Fitzgerald CO Cmdr. Bryce Benson will appear on March 7, and the three Fitzgerald officers will appear on March 8 in a joint hearing. | |||
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| Too old to run, too mean to quit! |
I cannot say that I am disturbed by this so-called disciplinary action. Well, maybe at the extreme leniency of it. A number of people should be standing up in military court to answer for a lot! People died who should not have died. And more than the captains were responsible. At least, to my way of thinking, some of those junior officers were equally derelict in their duties as well. If they knew how badly the officers and crew were performing, and that the captains were not doing their damned jobs, they should have done something about it. They did nothing but sit on their asses, forgetting their responsibilities towards those for whom they were responsible. Scared to risk their efficiency reports? Other BS? Or just freaking incompetent. In any case more than the CO's were responsible for those MCFs. AIR from my days in the army, it was called a "leadership function". In the case in discussion, it was a leadership MALFUNCTION. AIR, they used to call that an article 15. Elk There has never been an occasion where a people gave up their weapons in the interest of peace that didn't end in their massacre. (Louis L'Amour) "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical. " -Thomas Jefferson "America is great because she is good. If America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great." Alexis de Tocqueville FBHO!!! The Idaho Elk Hunter | |||
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| I believe in the principle of Due Process  |
You don’t know specificslly what duties they were derelict in performing, or what role each played in the incidence, if any. The CO is responsible for everythng. The other officers are responsible for specific areas, and for their own conduct in the incident. It is impossible to form an intelligent opinion from this sketchy report. Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me. When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown | |||
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| wishing we were congress |
https://news.usni.org/2018/02/...fitzgerald-collision Navy Makes Training Simulation Based on Fatal USS Fitzgerald Collision The new scenario on the Surface Warfare Officer School bridge simulator takes radar data, ship tracks and other open source information and recreates for SWOS students the experience of being on the bridge of the destroyer in the minutes leading up to the collision with ACX Crystal, "With a combination of having access to Fitzgerald’s speed and heading logs in combination with access to Crystal’s radar, we were able to reverse engineer [the scenario]. We’re pretty close to it.” | |||
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Lost |
USS John S McCain fatal collision blamed on 'sudden turn': report By Amy Lieu Published March 08, 2018 FoxNews.com A U.S. Navy warship made a “sudden turn,” colliding with a commercial vessel in Singapore territorial waters and resulting in the deaths of 10 U.S. sailors, Singapore's government said in a report Thursday. The USS John S. McCain's collision with an oil tanker Aug. 21 was among several mishaps in the Asia-Pacific region that involved U.S. Navy warships, Reuters reported. Just two days after the McCain crashed, Vice Adm. Joseph Aucoin was relieved of his duty as commander of the U.S. 7th Fleet. The sudden turn by the McCain -- named for the grandfather and father of U.S. Sen. John S. McCain III, R-Ariz. -- was from a “series of missteps” at the control of the ship, said the report from Singapore’s Transport Safety Investigation Bureau, VOA News reported. The rapid change in direction unintentionally increased the rate of the vessel’s turn, putting it in the path of the Liberian-flagged commercial vessel Alnic MC, the bureau's report said. But the agency report “should not be used to assign blame and determine liability,” the bureau noted. Two months earlier, the USS Fitzgerald, another U.S. guided missile destroyer, collided with a Philippine container ship off the Japanese coast, killing seven sailors. The commanding officers of both the USS John S. McCain and the USS Fitzgerald are facing criminal charges, including negligent homicide, dereliction of duty and endangerment of a ship, VOA News reported. Several other officers from both ships face criminal charges or administrative actions, while several senior naval officers were fired, the report said. Another report by Adm. John Richardson, chief of naval operations, found the collisions were “avoidable,” VOA News reported. A review of deadly ship collisions in the Asia-Pacific showed sailors were undertrained and overworked, Reuters reported. The U.S. Navy subsequently announced a series of systemic reforms in hopes of restoring basic naval skills and “alertness at sea.” Amy Lieu is a news editor and reporter for Fox News. FOX News | |||
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His Royal Hiney |
Tough for them but no less than what I expected; people died. "It did not really matter what we expected from life, but rather what life expected from us. We needed to stop asking about the meaning of life, and instead to think of ourselves as those who were being questioned by life – daily and hourly. Our answer must consist not in talk and meditation, but in right action and in right conduct. Life ultimately means taking the responsibility to find the right answer to its problems and to fulfill the tasks which it constantly sets for each individual." Viktor Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning, 1946. | |||
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| I believe in the principle of Due Process |
Who writes this shit? Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me. When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown | |||
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Tinker Sailor Soldier Pie |
I had to re-read that more than a few times before finally saying screw it and pretty much dismissing the rest of the article. ~Alan Acta Non Verba NRA Life Member (Patron) God, Family, Guns, Country Men will fight and die to protect women... because women protect everything else. ~Andrew Klavan "Once there was only dark. If you ask me, light is winning." ~Rust Cohle | |||
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Age Quod Agis |
I've been wondering why the commander of the Pacific Fleet, Admiral Swift, wasn't relieved also for these fiascos. As I see it, he is responsible for ensuring that the orders given to his fleet are reasonably achievable by the material and manning available, and that if op-tempo is too high or training isn't being met, it is his responsibility to ensure that there are more ships and men available to perform the required missions. We are not at war, and should not be losing people and equipment due to op-tempo related reasons; insufficient training, crew exhaustion, lack of qualification, and lack of experience. It seems likely to me that there is probably ample evidence of the deficiencies in ship handling skill if a proper review of fleet training exercises were to be reviewed. I was not Navy; I was Army. We had observer-controllers at every level of organization on field training exercises, and they were ruthless in uncovering weakness, even when it didn't lead to failure. If the Navy is doing it's training properly, there should be plenty of evidence in the OC's training report records of the weaknesses that lead to these two tragedies, and the highest levels of command should have been aware, and taken appropriate actions to correct. Obviously this has not been done. I note that Adm. Swift has been notified that he will not be nominated to serve as the head of the United States Pacific Command, the joint command for the Pacific region, and will retire instead. I'm frustrated that the commanders of the ships are up on negligent homicide charges while the senior leadership responsible for putting them in that situation and failing to support fleet needs are retiring with 4 star benefits. "I vowed to myself to fight against evil more completely and more wholeheartedly than I ever did before. . . . That’s the only way to pay back part of that vast debt, to live up to and try to fulfill that tremendous obligation." Alfred Hornik, Sunday, December 2, 1945 to his family, on his continuing duty to others for surviving WW II. | |||
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| I believe in the principle of Due Process |
Proximate cause. The Navy way. The captain is responsible for everything that happens on his ship. The Admiral isn’t blamed if the ship goes off without movies, ice cream, ammo, fuel, mechanical conditions, other details, etc. It was the CO’s responsibility to see that his officers were capable. In this case, the CO himself actually was on the bridge, “had the con” as we say. Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me. When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown | |||
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| Age Quod Agis |
Thanks JALLEN, I understand that, and am not advocating that the respective captains not be held responsible. They are clearly the folks most directly responsible for the safety of their ships, and the lives of their men. My point is that if I were president, I would be tempted to fire everyone in the PACFLT chain of command from the CNO on down to the commander of DESRON 15. So far, Commander, DESRON 15, Commander, Task Force 70 and Commander 7th Fleet were outright relieved, so far as I can tell. I don't know if they will be reduced in rank, or if they will revert to the last rank where they satisfactorily served, or if they will be allowed to retire at current rank. PACFLT, Pacific Command, and higher have all survived outright relief, and eventhough PACFLT is not going higher, he is retiring as a 4 star. The air gets pretty thin at that level. Fire the lot of them, with unpleasant consequences, as Voltair said of the British when they had spine, "pour encourager les autres." The captain's lives will be ruined; the admirals will retire and be able to say, "Well, it was a pretty good run until that damned captain hit the container ship." My argument isn't that the captains didn't fail; It's that the admirals also failed, and will not pay an adequate price. "I vowed to myself to fight against evil more completely and more wholeheartedly than I ever did before. . . . That’s the only way to pay back part of that vast debt, to live up to and try to fulfill that tremendous obligation." Alfred Hornik, Sunday, December 2, 1945 to his family, on his continuing duty to others for surviving WW II. | |||
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| I believe in the principle of Due Process |
I take your point. I don't think seniors have ever been held responsible for the operational failings of a single ship, unless they ordered whatever it was that turned out badly. I’d be much more sympathetic to holding them responsible for the Fat Leonard bribery scheme that involved some fat cat and a bunch of senior officers over port arrangements and supplying ships all over WestPac. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_Leonard_scandal Maybe it is just that it happened on your watch, so you suffer, whether you could have done anything about it or not. Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me. When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown | |||
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| Member |
In this case I agree that while the Captains should of necessity suffer, command all of the way to the top should also get the axe. Admiral J Byng faced a French Fleet of approximately even force the fleet he commanded lost to the French off Minorca, arguably through excess caution. One could have expected him to lose his command--and he did lose it. But the Royal Navy went a step further, court martialed, and then hung Admiral Byng, for "failure to do his utmost" in the presence of the enemy. This prompted the famous remark that Byng was hung to encourage the others (pour encourager les autres). | |||
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| Lost |
IKR? What does this even mean? The rapid turn caused the vessel to turn rapidly? Grumpy cat is grumpy? | |||
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| Member |
I've been saying these same things throughout the thread and have taken a lot of flack over it. It is really a shame that it took 4 major accidents for the Navy to actually react to the issues. In the commercial world, one accident triggers a full blown NTSB investigation into the ship, the crew, the entire company that owns the ship, the condition of all of it's ships, the training of all of the other ships crews, all of their training, and the company's safety philosophy. Had an investigation been triggered after the first accident, I feel the second one may have still occurred while the investigation was in process, BUT, I feel the Mccain and Fitzgerald accidents would have been avoided. | |||
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| Peace through superior firepower  |
You are a slow learner | |||
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Baroque Bloke |
For what it’s worth… “A touch-screen control system installed in the USS John S McCain may have caused the warship's deadly 2017 collision that left 10 sailors dead, a new report suggests. …… ProPublica delved into the maritime disaster and published an extensive report on Friday that argues that the USS McCain's Integrated Bridge and Navigation System (IBNS) is largely at fault for the collision…” https://mol.im/a/7819245 Serious about crackers | |||
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אַרְיֵה |
I just looked at the Daily Mail article that Pipe Smoker linked, just above. Does anybody actually proof read this stuff (Daily Mail, not Pipe Smoker)?
הרחפת שלי מלאה בצלופחים | |||
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Semper Fi - 1775 |
Touchscreens, they scare the shit out of me. I think of all of the WW2 movies I’ve seen and the damage those ships sustained, yet the crew was still able to keep the ship functional. I see videos of today’s navy, with huge monitor screens, touch screens, everything so electronic it looks like the bridge of the Starship Enterprise. Maybe am probably oversimplifying things, but my perception is that in 2020 it is a whole lot easier to disable a naval vessel of today, than it was in 1944. That just does not make any sense to me. Nothing would make me happier than having somebody respond telling me “here’s why you’re wrong…: But I don’t think that I am. ___________________________ All it takes...is all you got. ____________________________ For those who have fought for it, Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ | |||
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SIGforum.com Main Page The Lounge USS John S. McCain collides with merchant ship in Pacific ***Update with report page 18***
Main Page The Lounge USS John S. McCain collides with merchant ship in Pacific ***Update with report page 18***© SIGforum 2024