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Not really from Vienna
Picture of arfmel
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I change mine at 5k miles despite the oil minder saying there’s 30% oil life left. I regularly drive on dirt roads in 100+ degree heat and I don’t trust the capacity of the itsy bitsy oil filter on my truck.
 
Posts: 26852 | Location: Jerkwater, Texas | Registered: January 30, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Too clever by half
Picture of jigray3
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quote:
Originally posted by btanchors:
I've performed hundreds of UOAs (Used oil analyses) since the mid-1970's, and still do to this day. (I'm an amateur tribologist)

There is no question that analytically, oil contains far more contaminants from metals in the first several thousand miles of an engine's life. This is an established fact that cannot be refuted, because I have proven it repeatedly dozens of times, on lots of different vehicles.

What I CANNOT state as fact is how significant these increased metals are.

On average, it takes 3 - 4 oil changes to get the levels to establish themselves at whatever levels are normal for that engine. In general, contaminant levels stabilize between 20 - 30 thousand miles.

In my opinion, early oil changes are probably a waste of money. That said, I do have my first oil change around 1,000 miles just because it makes me "feel better".

But in reality, any real difference from early oil changes is probably so small, that you're more likely to get rid of the car for reasons other than a worn-out engine.

My $0.02...


I would be interested in knowing from you if there has been a decrease in metal contamination from newer engines with the increase in manufacturing technology and improved tolerances. I have heard that modern parts start off with a better fit, closer tolerances, but have read little to back that claim up, and am not sure wht the impact on metal contamination during break in would be.

That said, oil filter media is designed to filter down to 40 microns nominal. as long as the oil film is relatively thicker than 40 microns, then we should be good to go. I think it unlikely that the filter media would become clogged enough to engage the bypass valve in the oil filter. And film strength in modern synthetics is 10x that found in mineral based oils, so requires tremendous amounts to pressure to reduce the thickness of the film.




"We have a system that increasingly taxes work, and increasingly subsidizes non-work" - Milton Friedman
 
Posts: 10350 | Location: Richmond, VA | Registered: December 11, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
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Most people have a sample size of a few cars, maybe a dozen. Car manufactures have a sample size of 10s of thousands, if not more of the same engine to analyze & decide on service intervals.
The reason they keep extending the oil change interval is that it really isn't THAT important.

I don't deal with oil or write service specifications, but I do work in quality in automotive mfg.

On the other hand, it doesn't hurt anything but your wallet to change it early. There are much more important things to spend your time thinking about & definitely more important things to argue on the internet about.
 
Posts: 3297 | Location: IN | Registered: January 12, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Like a party
in your pants
Picture of armored
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I usually follow the the path of more frequent oil changes than asked for, and then with synthetic oil.
I would modify this practice in the case of a brand new engine and follow the manufacturers advice.
The manufacture is all in with warranty obligations, there must be a reason why they state a 10,000 mile change. Maybe with factory installed synthetic oil it takes that long for parts to wear in properly, the oil they install is probably purpose made for this break in period.
I would accept the fact that there engineers know more than I do about initial engine and component break-in.
 
Posts: 4609 | Location: Chicago, IL, USA: | Registered: November 17, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
The reason they keep extending the oil change interval is that it really isn't THAT important

Car mfg. have lots of reasons to extend that do not necessarily match my requirements. They are under tremendous pressure by the EPA to cut the amount of used oil. They are under pressure to make the fuel mileage standard which means we have thinner oils, and smaller parts including oil filters and oil pan size, etc. They are often under competitive pressures to include some service plan in the price of the vehicle. Etc.
But what I care about is ultimately very long engine life. And that is unlikely to be very high in their list. I change my oil more often than they recommend. And I think it has helped me get excellent service life out of my engines.
Of course if I got the same service life and spent less I might also be ahead. But new engines are silly expensive.


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 10974 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I would follow the manufacture's guide. I read something about that the other day about the first oil fill being special to break in and how it was a mistake to change earlier than recommended because of the special additives that were in that particular fill.
In this particular instance you could be decreasing your engines life by getting rid of the first fill before the recommended time.


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Posts: 1411 | Location: Arkansas | Registered: November 09, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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That might be true in the sense that the oil initially installed may be unique in some way (I would have no way of validating that). But the manufacturer has some time limit on oil changes in addition to the mileage limit (my most recent truck is 6 months if you don't hit the mileage limit). Thus many engines are getting the oil out before the mileage limit, so I would expect since they don't make any note of that its not an issue for that first change.


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 10974 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
7.62mm Crusader
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You can get Idemitsu factory 0W20 on Amazon as the large bottles are less expensive. Now buying a single quart is painfull. I will put this in my Sienna at next change instead of Mobile 1. Ive used the Mobile 1 forever and its a well known oil.
 
Posts: 17891 | Location: The Bluegrass State! | Registered: December 23, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Alienator
Picture of SIG4EVA
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Change it when the minder tell you to. The oil technology is significantly improved over years ago.


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Posts: 7058 | Location: NC | Registered: March 16, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by hrcjon:
quote:
The reason they keep extending the oil change interval is that it really isn't THAT important

Car mfg. have lots of reasons to extend that do not necessarily match my requirements. They are under tremendous pressure by the EPA to cut the amount of used oil. They are under pressure to make the fuel mileage standard which means we have thinner oils, and smaller parts including oil filters and oil pan size, etc. They are often under competitive pressures to include some service plan in the price of the vehicle. Etc.
But what I care about is ultimately very long engine life. And that is unlikely to be very high in their list. I change my oil more often than they recommend. And I think it has helped me get excellent service life out of my engines.
Of course if I got the same service life and spent less I might also be ahead. But new engines are silly expensive.


The trend is actually more oil per liter of displacement. This is a result of higher combustion temps (or pressures).
If 3k oil changes meant longer life or fewer engine problems total, mfgs would tell you to change it at 2k. Why? Warranty costs destroy profit & longer warranty is a selling point on cars. Oil change interval isn't.
I can assure you that if they could reduce the failure rate for <100k miles by 0.1% just by cutting that 7.5k recommendation down to 5k, they would issue a recall to whiteout the owners manual.
But hey, I worry about single-digit problems per million & I change my oil before it's due (at 20% life, I schedule an oil change). You're not gaining anything significant by changing oil 2x as often, but it's not a major cost either. There's still a huge number of parts in an engine to fail, built by the lowest bidder. Internet oil arguments rival 9mm vs .45 in effect & outcome, but I can always participate on a lazy Saturday night.
 
Posts: 3297 | Location: IN | Registered: January 12, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of aileron
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I changed the oil on the new Bullitt Mustang at 1,000 miles, and will do them for here on at 5,000. I think Ford's recommendation is 7,000...but i enjoy doing doing the work myself and it makes me believe I'm doin' the motor some good.

The Mustang and Ram both get Pennzoil 5W-20 full synthetic, the BMW gets BMW Long Life oil.

I also cut open the filter and check for metallic crud (ferrous and non-ferrous) at each oil change - something I learned the hard way from airplanes.
 
Posts: 1472 | Location: Montana - bear country | Registered: March 20, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I usually do the first around 1500 miles and switch to full synthetic and do changes every 7500 miles.
 
Posts: 1393 | Location: County 18, OH | Registered: April 11, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Yokel
Picture of ontmark
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Change it when the owners manual says to or the oil change lite comes on.

They want to keep you as a satisfied customer for the long run hoping you will buy another one of their products.



Beware the man who only has one gun. He probably knows how to use it! - John Steinbeck
 
Posts: 3878 | Location: Vallejo, CA | Registered: August 18, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Who else?
Picture of Jager
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200 miles, dumped the factory installed conventional oil and replaced filter and put in conventional oil.

2000 miles, replaced filter and put in full synthetic.

At 6000 miles, replaced filter and full synthetic.

Repeat every 6000 miles.

Did go 7500 for two intervals, but the oil was a little dark, so went back to 6,000 miles.

These threads are like firearm lubrication threads. We all do what we do and 99.9% of us have no empirical data to back up why we do what we do.

And that's perfectly okay.
 
Posts: 2568 | Location: Phoenix, Arizona | Registered: October 30, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Call me old school, but I usually look at the little book in the glove box and follow that.
 
Posts: 17121 | Location: Lexington, KY | Registered: October 15, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go Vols!
Picture of Oz_Shadow
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1k change after breakin. It’s cheap and the parts are wearing in. There may even be some casting or machining remnants in there.
 
Posts: 17871 | Location: SE Michigan | Registered: February 10, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Lawyers, Guns
and Money
Picture of chellim1
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quote:
Originally posted by jigray3:
New Toyotas come with the full synthetic 0W-20 made for Toyota by Mobil 1. It is in fact a 10k mile oil. And further, the 0W-20 Mobil sells off the shelf is NOT the same stuff they engineer for Toyota. So basically, the good news is 10K is fine, but only if you use the Toyota oil, at this point anyway. I'm still getting used the the pourability of the 0W-20, but the reports are, despite the fact it appears "thin", it's good stuff.

BMW does a similar sort of thing, their oil, also a Mobil 1 product, is spec'd as a Long Life oil, and the vehicle monitors your driving habits and conditions and tells you when to change the oil, usually about a year for us.

Also, almost all fluids in your 4Runner are "lifetime" fluids including the differentials, transfer case, transmission, and coolant. Obviously, if you are doing regular off road driving or towing, or other hard driving, you'll want to shorten the intervals, and all my fluids get replaced at 100K just because of the chance of breakdown or contamination. The coolant is specifically for Toyotas (red), but there are aftermarket compatible clones. The diff and TC are pretty standard, but the weights are not commonly found. Redline makes some good ones though. The ATF fluid, however, that's only available from Toyota, AFAIK.

The power steering fluid is the oddball. It's clear or amber color from Toyota, but they actually spec Dexron II or III ATF for the steering box which is red. I just changed mine and went with the Mobil Full Synthetic Dex II/III compatible fluid which is supposed to be great stuff.

Good info, jigray3. Thanks for posting.



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Posts: 23946 | Location: St. Louis, MO | Registered: April 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
If you see me running
try to keep up
Picture of mrvmax
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quote:
Originally posted by Jager:
200 miles, dumped the factory installed conventional oil and replaced filter and put in conventional oil.

2000 miles, replaced filter and put in full synthetic.

At 6000 miles, replaced filter and full synthetic.

Repeat every 6000 miles.

Did go 7500 for two intervals, but the oil was a little dark, so went back to 6,000 miles.

These threads are like firearm lubrication threads. We all do what we do and 99.9% of us have no empirical data to back up why we do what we do.

And that's perfectly okay.

I would like to get some data but between the oil analysis cost and the cost of 7 quarts of oil per change I will forego that.
 
Posts: 4077 | Location: Friendswood Texas | Registered: August 24, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
If you see me running
try to keep up
Picture of mrvmax
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quote:
Originally posted by trapper189:
quote:
I know all the typical comments like "the dealer knows what is best for the vehicle so listen to them" and "you're wasting your money". But I see it as cheap insurance and it certainly does not hurt anything.


Basically then, your mind is made up. My question to you then is, why change it at 5k intervals? Why not 3k, 2k, or even 1k? After all, your logic, it doesn't hurt anything and getting the contaminants out early, still applies.

I change the oil when the oil minder tells me to. The manual calls for 5w40 synthetic for my truck, so that's what I use.

Why not at 100, 200 or 300 mile? Because at those intervals the cost versus benefits would not be worthwhile. Plus there have been studies using 5k mile intervals and that is why I use that mileage.
 
Posts: 4077 | Location: Friendswood Texas | Registered: August 24, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
If you see me running
try to keep up
Picture of mrvmax
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by hrcjon:
quote:
The reason they keep extending the oil change interval is that it really isn't THAT important

Car mfg. have lots of reasons to extend that do not necessarily match my requirements. They are under tremendous pressure by the EPA to cut the amount of used oil. They are under pressure to make the fuel mileage standard which means we have thinner oils, and smaller parts including oil filters and oil pan size, etc. They are often under competitive pressures to include some service plan in the price of the vehicle. Etc.
But what I care about is ultimately very long engine life. And that is unlikely to be very high in their list. I change my oil more often than they recommend. And I think it has helped me get excellent service life out of my engines.
Of course if I got the same service life and spent less I might also be ahead. But new engines are silly expensive.


I'm with you, the car manufacturers best interest is their bottom line, not the consumer. I have mentioned it on this forum before, the Auto Mojo car radio show in Houston has covered the reason why you do not use auto manufacturer maintenance intervals. The intervals are designed to keep the original buyer happy with low cost of ownership. Most auto buyers do not keep the vehicle for more than a couple of years so if they have to spend very little on maintenance they are more likely to buy another new vehicle. People trust the vehicle maintenance minders and manufacturer specs way too much.
 
Posts: 4077 | Location: Friendswood Texas | Registered: August 24, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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