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How do you rate this weapon retention technique? Login/Join 
Too soon old,
too late smart
posted
As a senior, I’m concerned about being caught off guard and losing any defensive weapon I might have. I’m comfortable that I can retain my cane, even if an aggressor has a grip on it, but my shooter is a different story. Elbow strikes can be very powerful and coupled with this style two handed grip looks like a worthwhile strategy for keeping control of a hand gun. What say you more knowledgeable members?
link
 
Posts: 4481 | Location: Southern Texas | Registered: May 17, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
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Like anything else, there are merits and pitfalls. I would consider this as another tool in the tool box. It has been our experience that very few physical altercations remain standing for long. If I had limited time to train, I would start with the ground fight, then work on the upright fight.


Ignem Feram
 
Posts: 379 | Registered: October 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
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not a fan of placing my hands over / around the muzzle of my weapon, especially during a struggle

if you're still standing -- try to create distance

at the 3 second mark he clears leather but instead of stepping back -- he moves back TOWARD his adversary??

but a struggle like that would be extremely taxing -- you'd need to have the willingness to try anything at that point-- kick, knee, head butt, etc

i was taught in jiu jitsu many years ago -- when trying to disarm an opponent in a close struggle -- you MUST use BOTH hands and as much of your body weight as possible on their weapons hand / arm. then you have the best chance -- you might be a big guy -- but i doubt you can arm curl 170 pounds...

always good to try to think these things through ahead of time ... at least try to have a plan. but as mike tyson famously said -- everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face


----------------------------------


Proverbs 27:17 - As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
 
Posts: 8137 | Location: Florida | Registered: September 20, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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to add -- not saying there is no merit to the technique

oftentimes people would come into the class with 'crazy' ideas or techniques they saw / read about

our instructor would carve out 15 minutes and we would practice the technique and kick around the pros / cons ...

as mentioned above -- good to have different potential tools

-----------------------------


Proverbs 27:17 - As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
 
Posts: 8137 | Location: Florida | Registered: September 20, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Keep a pocket knife in your left pocket, keep your right band on theirs, hold em as best you can keeping the gun in the holster or away from you while you stab him in the head until he drops or gets the point and gives up.

I was also taught to drop the mag if I can, but I bet that’s easier said than done in most situations
 
Posts: 3114 | Registered: December 06, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fighting the good fight
Picture of RogueJSK
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quote:
Originally posted by Sig209:
not a fan of placing my hands over / around the muzzle of my weapon, especially during a struggle


Yep.

We are trained in a different method of two-handed retention stance. Rather than placing your hand over the top of the handgun and potentially muzzling yourself, you come up into a heavily modified two-handed shooting stance, with both hands on the grip and the leading crooked arm below the muzzle, and your offhand shoulder/elbow pointed towards the threat.

Similar to the photo below, but with the torso bladed further, the offhand wrapped around even further rearward, and the leading elbow "chicken winged" to protrude out even further forward. This allow you to punch forward with your strong hand arm into your offhand palm to strike with your leading off hand elbow, as well as use that leading elbow to deflect their grab attempts and strikes, plus use the leading elbow as a rigid point of contact to leverage against their body in a close quarters grapple to force standoff from which to get some shots off without the muzzle being in contact with them and potentially being pushed out of battery (rendering the gun unable to fire). Plus you can easily let go with your off hand to reach out with offhand palm strikes or stiff-arms to create greater distance, and your offhand shoulder is already positioned forward for greatest reach.

In this two-handed stance I described, it's much tougher to get a part of your body in front of the muzzle, compared to what is shown in that video.

 
Posts: 26090 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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Never say, “never,” but the technique seems much more likely to be of value for a law enforcement officer than a non-LEO. LEOs must close with people they’re arresting or for other reasons and that is why it’s far more likely that an unarmed adversary will assault them and attempt a gun take-away. Their guns are also usually carried in exposed holsters and the BGs know they’re armed.

How likely is any of that with a non-LEO who is carrying concealed? Why would such an attack even occur? If we’re assaulted for some reason such as a robbery or “rage” attack, it will probably be with a weapon or by an unarmed attacker who doesn’t know we’re armed. If with a weapon there will be no attempt to control and take our gun away. If the latter there is the issue of using deadly force for defense, but even if that’s justified, drawing a handgun under grappling fight conditions might not be a good idea, especially if we’re the older and weaker one in the battle.




“The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.”
— Bertrand Russell
 
Posts: 42668 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Don't Panic
Picture of joel9507
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Far from an expert (for those, see above! Man, I love this place) and I am not an LEO forced in some situations to get into grapple-range with a perp. That said, as a private citizen who, when carrying carries concealed, I'm personally not going to put my hands anywhere near the muzzle. Not for training, not for retention. Nope, nope, nope.

Reason being, I like my hands.
 
Posts: 13313 | Location: North Carolina | Registered: October 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
semi-reformed sailor
Picture of MikeinNC
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When I was a cop and a sailor were were taught about weapon retention. Over time we were given holsters with more retention devices. At one point in my career a PCP hopped up suspect grabbed my pistol. We were using a safari land triple retention holster that involved a thumbreak, a retention strap that had to be unsnapped just behind the trigger guard and the weapon had to rocked back to disengage the interior portion that kept the gun from being drawn straight up-some kind of plastic doo-dad that fit into the area of the ejection port. When the guy grabbed at my gun, I instinctively grabbed it first and held the pistol’s grip while keeping it pushed into the holster. Two of the straps were defeated within seconds and the only reason he didn’t get my gun was that I was forcing it into the holster.

I found out that all of my training kept me from losing my gun. Also, while “fighting” with one hand on your gun, you can do little damage to the adversary. I managed to beat the guy with my taser after it had no effect on him. Read that again, I had tasered him before he grabbed the gun, i tasered him while fighting him, and used the taser to drive stun him in the neck and head and eventually broke the taser beating him with it. I fought the guy for about four and a half minutes....and it was the longest time in my life.

After eventually beating the guy into cuffs I learned some things.

After suffering several broken ribs due to the fight, I placed a cold steel safe maker 2, behind my magazine pouch on my belt-worn at my 11:00(just to the left of the belt buckle). And practiced to stab someone in the neck if it ever happened again. A gun grab is a deadly force situation and needs to be answered with deadly force. I also revisited the “why” of why I didn’t just kill the suspect- and I found I was too wrapped up in arresting this guy instead of realizing he was trying to kill me- and I should have just killed him.

I’m retired now, carry a gun in an inside the waistband holster that provides little retention, certainly not the three levels the duty holster did. I still wear the safe maker in the 11:00 position and won’t make the same mistake twice.

My advise is get a push knife, wear it opposite of your gun hand and get your mind right about killing someone who might grab your gun.



"Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
― Robert A. Heinlein, Starship Troopers

 
Posts: 7628 | Location: Temple, Texas! | Registered: October 07, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fighting the good fight
Picture of RogueJSK
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeinNC:
and the only reason he didn’t get my gun was that I was forcing it into the holster.

...
After suffering several broken ribs due to the fight, I placed a cold steel safe maker 2, behind my magazine pouch on my belt-worn at my 11:00(just to the left of the belt buckle). And practiced to stab someone in the neck if it ever happened again.


Yep. That's the ideal way to defend against a gun grab... From the holster. You can exert a large amount of force downward on the grip of the gun, even with just one arm, while dropping your center of gravity. The downward force, plus the lower center of gravity, plus the attacker being bent over and off-balance, combined with the holster's retention devices, renders it nearly impossible for an attacker to wrench the gun out.

Meanwhile, your offhand is free to apply alternative deadly force, either through an offhand backup gun or offhand knife.
 
Posts: 26090 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Little ray
of sunshine
Picture of jhe888
posted Hide Post
Who knows, and he doesn't either. It might work, but until some time has passed and data collected, there is no way to tell if it actually works or not.

If it makes sense to you, give it a try.




The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything.
 
Posts: 49125 | Location: Texas | Registered: February 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Still Waters Run Deep
Picture of Quicksand
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Don't try it with a revolver!


---------------
-Quicksand-
 
Posts: 2291 | Location: New Hampshire | Registered: June 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Too soon old,
too late smart
posted Hide Post
Thanks for the in put. I just want to be as prepared as I can be.

This one certainly gave me a new perspective on handling mouse guns and revolvers in a struggle.
 
Posts: 4481 | Location: Southern Texas | Registered: May 17, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of myrottiety
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quote:
get your mind right about killing someone who might grab your gun.


Probably the best line in this thread.




Train how you intend to Fight

Remember - Training is not sparring. Sparring is not fighting. Fighting is not combat.
 
Posts: 8160 | Location: Alpharetta, GA | Registered: August 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Do---or do not.
There is no try.
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sportshooter:
As a senior, I’m concerned about being caught off guard and losing any defensive weapon I might have. I’m comfortable that I can retain my cane, even if an aggressor has a grip on it, but my shooter is a different story. Elbow strikes can be very powerful and coupled with this style two handed grip looks like a worthwhile strategy for keeping control of a hand gun. What say you more knowledgeable members?
link


I just watched this video and like this technique VERY much.
 
Posts: 3891 | Registered: January 01, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
10mm is The
Boom of Doom
Picture of Fenris
posted Hide Post
I understand the intent, but it seems to me that it might leave your abdomen very open to a close in knife attack. But I have rather limited experience with hand to hand combat.




The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People again must learn to work, instead of living on public assistance. ~ Cicero 55 BC

The Dhimocrats love America like ticks love a hound.
 
Posts: 17067 | Location: Northern Virginia | Registered: November 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by limblessbiff:
Keep a pocket knife in your left pocket, keep your right band on theirs, hold em as best you can keeping the gun in the holster or away from you while you stab him in the head until he drops or gets the point and gives up.



I actually subscribe to this practice and to this day, keep the knife in the off pocket. An academy mate of mine ended up stabbing a suspect during a struggle for the service pistol. A single application of the knife, made it's point and ended the contest in the good guys' favor.


Ignem Feram
 
Posts: 379 | Registered: October 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Do No Harm,
Do Know Harm
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by mlazarus:
quote:
Originally posted by limblessbiff:
Keep a pocket knife in your left pocket, keep your right band on theirs, hold em as best you can keeping the gun in the holster or away from you while you stab him in the head until he drops or gets the point and gives up.



I actually subscribe to this practice and to this day, keep the knife in the off pocket. An academy mate of mine ended up stabbing a suspect during a struggle for the service pistol. A single application of the knife, made it's point and ended the contest in the good guys' favor.


This is my approach.

Except it’s a gun instead of a knife.




Knowing what one is talking about is widely admired but not strictly required here.

Although sometimes distracting, there is often a certain entertainment value to this easy standard.
-JALLEN

"All I need is a WAR ON DRUGS reference and I got myself a police thread BINGO." -jljones
 
Posts: 10842 | Location: NC | Registered: August 16, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Like a party
in your pants
Picture of armored
posted Hide Post
The people in the video are pros. They practice this stuff daily. They are also tough as far as physical strength goes. NOT your typical persons, especially compared to us older types.
What they can accomplish in a video is probably night and day compared to what you or I could reasonably do.
Training is the key. You would need to train and practice constantly to overcome your natural instincts. Your natural instincts would NOT be to devote both your hands to securing your gun. especially in an ambush. Your natural instincts would be to bring your hands to meet the aggressor.
I have never been an advocate of high retention holsters, however, there is always a proper tool for every job. If I feared losing control of my weapon during a surprise attack, I might choose to carry a high retention holster, and become proficient in its use.
I would also advocate the use of another weapon that would be easily accessed from my left side. The knife is a good choice if its a fixed blade and easy to get to. You don't have to aim it.

I never felt is was necessary to train out my natural instincts but instead, go with them and work out a training program that incorporates those instincts.
We possess them because evolution has taught our brain that they work, very important when we age and our reactions are slower and our memories are not as sharp as they used to be. Doing what comes natural has a lot going for it.
 
Posts: 3520 | Location: Chicago, IL, USA: | Registered: November 17, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
For real?
Picture of Chowser
posted Hide Post
Honestly, if someone grabs my gun and it's still pointed at them, I'm just pulling the trigger.


After my incident in our jail seven years ago, I keep two automatic knives on me, one in each pocket and a push knife on my offhand side.

I didn't have my gun in the jail but I did have a small pocket folder. My hands were so sweaty from grappling with the wrestler/mma guy that I couldn't unfold the knife.



Not minority enough!
 
Posts: 6771 | Location: Cleveland, OH | Registered: August 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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